Tuesday, February 7, 2012

Are Jews to Blame for Vegetarianism?

For about two years now, I've been beating the drum that the modern nutrition paradigm, which stigmatizes (red) meat and champions vegetarianism and plant food, is a furtive aspect of post-60s leftism. The outright false and pseudoscientific justification for the now wholly entrenched low-fat, low-protein, heart-healthy whole grain diet is ultimately based upon anti-male, anti-white, and anti-traditionalist liberalism. For those unfamiliar with my writings on these issues, here's just about the most succinct bit of evidence for this argument. In The Sexual Politics of Meat: A Feminist-Vegetarian Critical Theory, anti-male feminist Carol Adams makes the following argument:
The Sexual Politics of Meat argues that what, or more precisely who, we eat is determined by the patriarchal politics of our culture, and that the meanings attached to meat eating are often clustered around virility. Further, she argues that vegetarianism and fighting for animal rights fit perfectly alongside working to improve the lives of disenfranchised and suffering people, under the wide umbrella of compassionate activism.
As for anti-white/anti-European, take a look at what these "trendy" foods all have in common. As for anti-traditionalist, picture white Christian American families around the dinner table enjoying a Christmas ham or Thanksgiving turkey. And of course, vegetarianism is extremely popular amongst the rarefied SWPL class.

Yet with all the discussion of our frightening obesity rates, rarely do we hear talking heads muse on the social meaning of food. In particular, we rarely food's correspondence with social class or how food choices are an often inexorable aspect of culture, i.e. blacks eating fried chicken. And even if we get some shallow discourse on these issues, not even nutritional iconoclasts like Taubes and Mercola explain the social biases of nutritional research.

I'm currently listening to Taubes' Why We Get Fat. He spends countless pages going over studies and biology and basically, a scientific answer for why we get fat. But he essentially ignores one of the first questions most people have, "How can so many doctors and scientists be completely wrong?" So when I started reading chapter 10 of his book, I found his discussion somewhat surprising. I'll relay his point, hidden in rather polite language: Jews are to blame for the false nutritional paradigm. Yes, Taubes essentially blames Jews for the post-WWII nutritional calamity that has manifested in our astronomical obesity rates.

Here's some background. German scientists and researchers like Gustav von Bergmann and Hilde Bruch had pioneered early 20th century work in obesity, then a relatively piddling issue. von Bergmann had come up with the "lipophilia" hypothesis in which he posited that obesity was a consequence of fat tissue regulation, not necessarily slothfulness or gluttony. Without going into detail, Taubes argues that early 20th century German and Austrian physicians had a much better understanding than we currently have of why the obese get obese. Primarily, they understood that "calories in, calories out" was wrong and none of them even considered the notion that saturated fat and red meat were a problem. So how do Jews come into this? Taubes explains:
By the late 1930's, von Bergmann's and Bauer's lipophilia hypothesis had become "more of less fully accepted" in Europe. It was catching on in the United States as well, where Russell Wilder of the Mayo Clinic wrote in 1938, "The conception deserves attentive consideration."

Within a decade, though, it had vanished. The European physicians and researchers who hadn't died in the Second World War or fled the continent had far more pressing issues to deal with than obesity. In the United States, a new generation of physicians and nutritionists came along after the war [OneSTDV: presumably many of them were Jewish immigrants] and they were enamored with Newburgh's "perverted appetite" logic, perhaps because it played to their preconceptions about penalties of gluttony and sloth [OneSTDV: looking down on the lower-class "goyim"].

Anti-German sentiment in the postwar medical community, understable as it may have been, assuredly didn't help matters. The authorities writing about obesity in the United States after the war treeated the German medical literature as though it didn't exist, even though it was the Germans and Austrians who had founded and done most of the meaningful research in the fields of nutrition, metabolism, endocrinology, and genetic, which means all the fields relevant to obesity.
In other words, the early and mid-20th century intellectual class, increasingly comprised of Jews, were wholly biased against the correct observations of German and Austrian researchers in nutrition. We see then that the postwar overhauling of the nutritional paradigm did not come from actual science, but from a social phenomenon that motivated a large group of the relevant academics.

We can further consider traditional European meats, such as bacon, ham, and pork, as well as shellfish like shrimp and scallops, that Jewish law forbids. As with most social movements bent on normalizing in-group behavior by devaluing out-group behavior, e.g. fatties who talk about "having curves", Jewish nutrition researchers sought to stigmatize (non-kosher) red meat because they could not partake, thereby making their group outsiders. The Jews who pioneered the vegetarian paradigm, and those like Dr. Andrew Weil and Dean Ornish who continue to champion it, likely did not feel comfortable with their gentile peers munching on bacon and pork while they ate matzo ball soup - not exactly the most American dish. By stigmatizing non-kosher meat and convincing the public that only the stupid and careless eat this way, Jews were able to nullify one aspect of their "other" status.

Further, Jews do not hunt. According to the Jewish Ethicist:
[I]t is necessary to acknowledge that Jewish tradition has a very poor regard for this pastime...The heroes of the Bible are generally herders, people who cultivate and nurture animals rather than merely pursue them.
The ultimate cosmopolitan class, Jews not only do not hunt, but they frown upon such a seemingly barbaric custom, preferring to get their meat at the neighborhood Jewish deli. Of course, someone's got to cut the chicken's head off, but I suppose only bucolic hicks would actually to do that themselves. Hunting is an integral part of (white) midwestern life and at the end of the hunt comes enjoying a meal of fresh meat. Adding to their outsider status, Jews have a justifiable, from their perspective, opposition to hunting and the attendant meat-eating. By characterizing meat-eating as bad, another aspect of traditional gentile America that Jews do not participate loses its corresponding social capital. And thus Jews do not suffer socially from their cultural abstinence.

I'll admit that I'm engaging in a little bit of hand-waving here. There are a few logical leaps necessary for this argument to hold, though my overall point is strongly supported by Taubes' mentioning of anti-German sentiment in the postwar medical community. One could classify the following simultaneous social phenomenon as coincidental: rise of 20th century Jewish intellectual class in America, large number of Jewish researchers flee to America, indiscriminate postwar bias against anything German, Jewish disdain for non-kosher meat and hunting, and the post 60s stigmatization of red meat and saturated fat. Yea, you could consider all those individually undeniable social movements and facts to be mere coincidence, but I wouldn't. (Required disclaimers for all Jewish posts - yes, it wasn't all Jews and please be civil in the comments.)

167 comments:

Remnant said...

Irony alert on diet: the following link contains one of the best deconstructions of the lies of the modern dietary / medical paradigm of health that I have read.

And the ironic kicker (which I didn't discover until after I read the page)? That it was composed and posted by a raw food vegan!!

http://www.nuagecafe.org/p/realization.html

(HT: Robert Paterson, http://smartpei.typepad.com/robert_patersons_weblog/2012/02/10-big-things-we-have-to-think-about-if-we-want-a-beter-healthcare-system.html)

Dissident said...

Vegetarianism is a religion, pure and simple. The adherents to this religion are devoted and fervent in their beliefs to their religion.

Many, if not most 'veggies' that I've seen, look sickly and emaciated. How anyone could feel this is a superior diet is akin to thinking that the Earth is flat.

Your hypothesis is intriguing though. My feeling is that the elite want to lower our "carbon foot print" and lessen our entropy; therefore, they promote this 'lower entropy' form of living. In essence, they're wanting us all to get off the meat band-wagon and onto the weed eating diet.

Lucille said...

OK, I'll bite: what do those "trendy" foods have in common, other than that they are trendy?

IHTG said...

WTF? Is this a joke post?

"Bucolic hicks" don't chop the chicken's head off - you need a shochet for that.

Contemporary vegetarianism probably comes from the same place as environmentalism and hippie culture, the roots of which are not Jewish.

MuayTyson said...

One,

This guy was a Dentist but I really thing he was on to things nutritionally speaking.

http://www.westonaprice.org/

Anonymous said...

I feel like you are suffering from bias yourself? I have looked but haven't found if you have read the china study or esselstyns book? If so would you comment on them again? We seem to have epidemiological evidence that vegetarianism prevents coronary artery disease. Perhaps you judge the vegans who have left a bad taste in your mouth as being all vegetarians. Not all of them have a political statement to make.

Cranberry said...

@Anon 7:16 a.m., check out this post by Denise Minger. She reviews the China Study and points out flaws in it:

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

Also, Taubes addresses Keys' Seven Countries study and its flaws in his book Good Calories, Bad Calories.

It's not that eating more veggies is bad; it's that eating only vegetables foods has detrimental side effects, which can accumulate over decades, and which leave us with diseases of civilization.

Many people vilify grains, but I am not so certain even grain foods are all to blame. The increased intake of sugar, and particularly HFCS, screws with human metabolism in ways other pre-industrial foods did not. The increase in the use of solvent-extracted vegetable oils like soy, canola, corn, and peanut is another recent phenomenon which coincides with the rise in obesity.

Clearly, something is amiss with our mid-20th century foods that was not hurting us pre-WWII. Obesity is far more complex than just CICO.

CICO matters to an extent, but a proper diet nullifies the need to monitor CICO, since satiety and proper nutrition fix our appetites so we naturally regulate how much we consume, and properly metabolize what we've consumed.

Weston A. Price hit upon this in the 1920s, and Sally Fallon's book Nourishing Traditions brings his findings and message to the modern table. Eating good fat, quality protein, organ meats, and properly prepared grain foods can heal you and help with weight loss.

Vegetarian diets are full of the wrong kinds of fats, carbs, and proteins, and many of the minerals and vitamins and proteins in vegetable foods are not bioavailable or optimal for absorbtion in the omnivorous human body.

Pat Hannagan said...

Reminds me of the haunting nemesis of the hero in "A Serious Man".

The Jew at the centre of that story had a neighbour who epitomised Jewish fears, like the Goy's teeth that returned in Jewish memory.

The neighbour not only was encroaching on the Jew's property boundaries, but was a hunter.

The neighbour was even such a hunter that he took his boy off from a day's school to go a huntin'.

Check out the pic. The stuff of nightmares. Goyishe kopf meets higher Jewish brain:

http://thefilmnest.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/a-serious-man-review-pic.gif

PA said...

It would be interesting to see if nutritionists of professional strength-sport athletes practice the food pyramid or a defacto paleo-diet.

After all, their job is dependent on simple, measurable results, i.e. the athlete's performance.

Cranberry said...

@PA, Joe Friel is a former pro triathlete and now a coach who advocates the paleo diet for his athletes. The results are above the average for the food pyramid athletes.

Of course, paleo is not all about low-carb (this is a mistake I find many people making), so any athlete, especially one doing tris at the semi- or pro-level, is going to need a hefty dose of sweet and possibly white potatoes, fruits, nuts, fats, and optimal protein for anabolic processes.

I think paleo's focus on good fats, naturally raised meat or hunted meat, lots of veg, some fruit, and complex carbs when activity level requires them is sound. Some people are not willing to give up bread or pasta (myself included) but grains are not a centerpiece of my diet. I might bake a loaf of sourdough bread a few times a month, have some lasagna twice a year when my dad pulls out the stops for holiday dinners, and I enjoy a bowl of oatmeal now and then when I am just not feeling bacon and eggs for the 16th day in a row.

The focus of the food pyramid/My Plate on commodity grains and vegetable oils is the detrimental aspect of modern diets. Look at a food guide from the 1930s or 1940s and see the emphasis on full fat dairy, meat, veg and fruit, and butter. Interesting how the gov't guidelines have changed so much and yet health has gone downhill.

Add to the mix the ubiquity of convenience foods, foods packaged for long-term shelf stability, the decline of daily home cooking, and confusion as to what "healthy" really means and you have a bigger problem than just the food pyramid. There is a world of difference between the Irish-style steel cut overnight soaked oatmeal I make and the sugary, artificially flavored packaged instant oatmeal many people consider "healthy" because, you know, OATS are WHOLE GRAINS!! and such.

Cranberry said...

correction: the paleo diet indicates the better results, not necessarily the food pyramid athletes. Wasn't paying attention to syntax.

thanks.

Carnivore said...

I'm not so sure. As I recall when these ideas hit the main stream, probably around the late 70's to early 80's, the big stink was about beef, eggs, butter and whole milk with pork only getting secondary mention.

Crisco, the first solid vegetable shortening (originally targeted for soap production from the then new hydrogenation process) was heavily marketed to Jews (e.g. "Jews had waited 4000 years for Crisco") and is very unhealthy.

I lean more towards what Dissident said - our ruling elite (many, but not all, who are Jews)strongly believe in overpopulation, reducing the carbon footprint and the like.

Also, as you note, meat consumption has always been associated with virility and aggressiveness. Our ruling elite do not want virile and aggressive males; they want docile serfs. And men have higher protein needs than women. Even WebMD says as much.
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/men-have-special-nutritional-needs

Cranberry said...

@Carnivore,

I cannot remember where I read about this, but there also seems to be some evidence that females who have a moderate to high level of meat consumption tend to have more male children. Something about a change in the pH of the uterine environment that favors Y-chromosome sperm.

I will try to find linkies. Not sure how valid this idea still is, I read about this years ago when I was into vegetarian diets.

Anonymous said...

Taubes did a very good job explaining the problems with the lipid hypothesis of heart disease, but he really got it wrong with his theory of obesity. The idea that nutritional science was better in all ways before WWII and that the big problem today is that nobody currently studying it has figured out that carbs drive insulin drives fat accumulation is just plain wrong. That theory of weight gain just doen't hold up to evidence and has been conclusively disproven virtually everywhere other than in Taubes' books and low carb blogs. For some painful but enlightening reading for anybody who still believes Taubes try:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html

Daybreaker said...

Jews aren't to blame for vegetarianism.

It's the Fuhrer's fault. His influence is wide and deep. ;)

Jews don't hate hunting because it produces meat but because the meat is treyf.

And they don't hate the gentiles' meat because it's meat but because this too is treyf.

IHTG at 2/07/2012 6:11 AM is 100% right.

Seriously, there is nothing Jewish about vegetarianism, except for frumme but very lazy Jews who are willing to eat worse than they could and to do without a part of Jewish cooking, and thus Jewish culture, for the sake of not bothering to keep seaparate sets of kitchenward for milk and meat.

On the other hand, the National Socialists were forerunners of environmentalism and in that way loosely connected with hippie culture. Even if one doubts that Adolf himself was a great moral influence on vegetarians today, he was onto the same sort of romantic back-to-nature thinking that often accompanies vegetarianism.

Anonymous said...

I like these ridiculous rebuttals that everything that's wrong with Western society today was because we're all somehow still under the spell of the most reviled man in history who died besieged in his bunker 65 years ago. Somehow I doubt that very same man whom we are constantly reminded killed six million Jews would have the power to make vegetarianism fashionable to SWPLs.

Jesus Christ Supercop said...

I stopped reading as soon as I saw the title. Jewish conspiracies are so played out that I can't believe anyone would still try to get them taken seriously.

av said...

Anonymous: Guyenet is attacking a straw man. The fact that some small tribe has evolved to eat almost nothing but sweet potatoes and be healthy doesn't mean you or I can do the same thing. Taubes's carb->insulin->metabolic syndrome hypothesis is the best explanation for rates of obesity, etc. in the industrialized world. Guyenet fails to actually defeat it because among other things he only looks at the short term effects of insulin and not at the long term effects of elevated insulin in humans.

Pat Hannagan said...

Seriously, there is nothing Jewish about vegetarianism...

You sure you read OneSTDV's post Daybreaker?

Nothing? Nothing?!

Sounds like you're trying to convince more than just yourself. Such a categorical statement, easily disputed in the very post you have just commented on, indicates something is troubling you my son.

Pat Hannagan said...

Here's something, something, Jewish about vegetarianism Daybreaker: http://jewishveg.com/schwartz/kook-expanded.html

Haven't read it all as yet, but it is something.

Anonymous said...

Jews are certainly to blame for vegetarianism, up to a certain extent, because vegetarianism comes from the will not to hurt animals, the will not to hurt animals comes from sensibility and altruism, sensibility and altruism have a wide Christian basis (this religion teaches to respect life in itself, even inferior, and this was a totally new concept at the time), and Christianity was invented by Jews.

dana said...

yeh

weirdly growing up jewish all we ate was gedemfte flaisch (brisket), beef short ribs, chicken fat and sour cream. the only vegetable you'll probably ever see in a traditional ashkenazi jewish meal is a carrot or a potato.

there is nothing in kashruth that supports vegetarianism. intellectual german academic jews were so because they were GERMAN, not because they were jewish

KD said...

AV- I think you may want to read his post if you think the he's basing his whole argument on a single tribe. The bottom line is that Taubes' theory has been considered, tested and discarded because it doesn't fit with the results of scientific observation, that includes long term insulin elevation.

That is not to say that there's no value in carbohydrate restriction or that the composition of diet isn't important. People have lost weight on low carb and what you put in your mouth matters, but there is simply no evidence that insulin is the driving factor behind weight gain.

KD

Pat Hannagan said...

Christianity was invented by Jews.

I've heard that stated often but never heard it explained well enough for my satisfaction.

The "invented" part implies a deliberate act. That Jews deliberately invented a religion that would persecute them on and off over 2,000 years, and Jews would rail against that religion for the same period.

I mean, I do understand the concept of the 'self-hating Jew' but this masochism surely is too far fetched.

IHTG said...

Daybreaker is referring to the apparent German roots of the hippie movement:

But apart from the slick zoot suit clad "white Negroes" of 1930’s Harlem there actually were long-haired bearded individuals during this same era who wore sandals or bare feet and usually tended to favor mild subtropical places like southern California and Florida where they could forage their meals from the fruit trees that were so plentiful then.

Wandervogel print from the local group in Darmstadt, 1911
"Nature Boys" as they were later called were without exception either German immigrants or American youths whose lives were influenced by transplanted Germans that spread their Lebensreform (life-reform) message to anyone ready for a radical departure from the accepted boundaries of 20th century civilization.


http://www.hippy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=243

Pat Hannagan said...

It's a sign surely of something, perhaps from God Hismelf, that IHTG and Daybreaker are so perfectly willing to assert a German basis for vegetarianism but are outraged, outraged, OUTRAGED! (as Whiskey would say) by the notion of a Jewish basis to vegetarianism.

What gives fellas?

nikcrit said...

"Jews are certainly to blame for vegetarianism, up to a certain extent, because vegetarianism comes from the will not to hurt animals, the will not to hurt animals comes from sensibility and altruism, sensibility and altruism have a wide Christian basis (this religion teaches to respect life in itself, even inferior, and this was a totally new concept at the time), and Christianity was invented by Jews."

I hope this was meant as a joke, but even if it was, its wide-open speculative logic is something that you see quite frequently in the alt-right sphere.

It's this type of thinking that will get you in the space where the Pat Hannagan's reside; sometimes, you just have to sitback and look at this type of obsession from a distance and then reassess your position.

IHTG said...

I'm not outraged. If vegetarianism is a popular liberal cause then you can be sure that Jews in America have done their part to promote it in the past 50 years.
But that's not really saying much.

Pat Hannagan said...

Ah Nikcrit, you invoke my name to elevate yourself. I thought your people had more self-esteem than that.

Just a tip, from the evil incarnate one myself, the "Christianity is a Jewish invention" meme can be found in my circles, but it is also much promulgated by Jews themselves. It's meant to wind you up.

nikcrit said...

"It's a sign surely of something, perhaps from God Hismelf, that IHTG and Daybreaker are so perfectly willing to assert a German basis for vegetarianism but are outraged, outraged, OUTRAGED! (as Whiskey would say) by the notion of a Jewish basis to vegetarianism."

See? That was the point of my last comment.
First of all, if I remember correctly, the post was saying that Germans in the mid 20th century promoted the PALEO-type diet, NOT vegetarianism ----- but that their view was stymied because of post-WWII anti-German sentiment, understandable or not.

But that little inversion of reality doesn't matter when it comes to pitting the rejected' German view against the 'accepted' Jewish script, right?

This is the one issue where the alt-right can look real, real loony to uninvolved passersby, FWIW (e.g., "I'm jes' sayin' now ..."

Pat Hannagan said...

Well, you did open with "WTF? Is this a joke post?" IHTG.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Anonymous said...

Obesity is genetic.

Eat less and exercise more if you are genetically disposed to obesity.

It is hard, and it sucks, but there it is.

I am genetically disposed to thinness and no amount of sitting on my rear makes me fat. I eat whatever I want including carbs and never get fat. There is no magic. It is just genetic.

Pat Hannagan said...

Nikcrit, there is always the option to deal with the poster's argument and evidence presented.

But, I suppose such things are more difficult and taxing of the brain than to simply call people "loony".

Personally, I have never considered the matter of vegetarianism being associated with Jews. The crux of OneSTDV's argument is "...the social meaning of food. In particular, we rarely food's correspondence with social class or how food choices are an often inexorable aspect of culture, i.e. blacks eating fried chicken."

That is interesting in and of itself. Food as an expression of social class and stigma.

And "uninvolved passersby" such as yourself surely could have some input on that subject, yes?

And what, pray tell, are you "uninvolved" with here? Does considering Jews and "the social meaning of food" breach some inviolable rule for you? The fried chicken went straight over your head but the Joooos got you all scared and defensive.

Note, no one has problem blaming the Germans, yet you didn't find that "loony".

Now I'm not going to be around all night to pick up your balls and hand them back to you so, please, hold on to them.

dana said...

Christianity was invented by Jews.

I've heard that stated often but never heard it explained well enough for my satisfaction.


dude are you fucking retarded? jesus was supposed to be the JEWISH messiah predicted in jewish eschatology, two of the synoptic gospels give him direct lineage to king david--he was born in biblical jewland, to jews, on their way to the jewish religious center for a jewish holiday, paul was SAUL a jewish priest and on and on and on but you "heard" somewhere christianity was invented by jews? who was it "invented by", the chinese?

i've known white nationalists and white supremacists since i was 16 years old and of all of them you are the one who seems most like you've suffered massive head trauma

Anonymous said...

Pat Hannagan and nikcrit -> Everything in Christian theology, Christian history and Christian philology exhales Judaism, and it takes a hefty dose of emotional bias to deny it.

In fact, the only ones I've seen denying the links between Judaism and Christianity are Christian anti-Semites ; normal Christians, notably Christian priests, totally admit that the Old Testament is Jewish and was written by Jews, and that most of Jesus' followers were Jewish -- Saul (Paul), for example.

Pat Hannagan said...

dude are you fucking retarded? Not of late Dana, but thanks for your concern.

Now I don't want to derail the thread, and would humbly suggest that if people don't wish to discuss what they find sacrosanct then they simply discuss "the social meaning of food", or food as an expression of culture, but will briefly answer your pleasant enquiry.

When one says that "Jesus was a Jew" one must consider the racial and religious aspect of what it means to be a Jew.

Was Jesus a Pharisee or Sadducee? No, he was neither. Matter of fact, he specifically abused these two sects.

Is Judaism today, from Jesus' time, of Christ's embodiment of prophecy or is it an extension of the Pharisaical sect?

In short: the Jews of today are of the Talmud which Jesus was not.

Racially Jesus was a Jew being born of a Jewish mother. His father was, er, um, God. I don't believe Jews consider having God as your old man is a defining principle of Judaism, Dana.

Maybe you could ask IHTG about this Dana. From all appearances he hasn't suffered any head trauma so perhaps you will listen to him.

av said...

KD: That's absolutely false. Guyenet hasn't presented the evidence needed to disprove the carb/insulin hypothesis. The problem with his insulin-minimizing view is that he has to ignore the observed effects of long term elevated insulin in humans. The food reward hypothesis leading to excessive consumption of junk food may be an important part of explaining how metabolic syndrome occurs, but denying observed effects of insulin doesn't help his case.

Pat Hannagan said...

the Old Testament is Jewish and was written by Jews, yes of course.

It has been Christian understanding that Christ came to the Jews but they rejected Him, thus the covenant torn and a new covenant with all men, in Christ. The Catholic Church was, and still is according to the Catechism, Israel.

It is a fairly recent thing, mostly post World War II to jabber on about Judeo-Christian motifs. It is a political movement being wholly sundered from Christian theology and tradition.

Though I cannot say I blame you or anyone else for that matter having come to the conclusions you have when just about every mainstream Christian Church promulgates the same apostasy on this subject.

The Catholic Church likes to refer to the Jews as "our elder brothers", thinking that they are being very clever in doing so. All it comes off as is ingratiating and obsequious, if not blasphemous.

Anyway, sorry for this diversion.

Anonymous said...

"Racially Jesus was a Jew being born of a Jewish mother. His father was, er, um, God."

It is funny to see Christian "true believers" on HBD blogs. I don't reject their company, but it is rather intriguing, considering that Christianity is a revolt against biology and genes.

Anonymous said...

"It has been Christian understanding that Christ came to the Jews but they rejected Him,"


They did?

I thought the apostles were Jews, as were the early followers.

The ruling class rejected him, of course, because they benefitted from the status quo.

nikcrit said...

Pat,
Don't get me wrong; I enjoy many of your comments and am even amused by your cantankerous exchanges with others.
Furthermore, I'll discuss Twin Peaks, David Lynch and his absurdist reverence of the Protestant ethic (my description alone) ----- but I cannot and will not discuss "Jooooz" with you; I'm sorry, but to me, you and many others simply have lost it when it comes to that issue. The only thing I'll concede on your end re. Jews is that you and most others are much, much better informed on both the facts adn the layers of interpretation re. jews already out there. So you do konw more about the subjet that I do ----- b ut I'm still not convinced you haven't 'created more' after that fact, if you know what I'm saying, etc., ad infinitum.

Pat Hannagan said...

They did?

I thought the apostles were Jews, as were the early followers.


Oh, c'mon. Just read the Acts of the Apostles would ya.

They remained Jewish by birth, but they were Christian due to Christ's death and resurrection, filled with the third part of the Trinity at Pentecost.

These first Christians, who were Jews by birth, were persecuted by the Jews and driven from their synagogues. Saul was a leading persecutor, as noted, but became Christian on the road to Damascus.

Jewish by birth then, is not the same as being of the Jewish faith today. The confusion arises over the fact that to be Jewish is a racial and religious matter, unlike just about every other religion.

Thrasymachus said...

The bias against meat and toward grain is not Jewish, but comes from 19th century American Protestant Christianity.

The Seventh Day Adventists (a 19th century sect)are vegetarian. Mormonism (a 19th century sect) is essentially vegetarian, although this is not much practiced now by Mormons. The Kelloggs, Seventh Day Adventists, invented breakfast cereal. The SDA church statement on vegetarianism is indistinguishable from what the USDA says.

I think this comes deep down from the idea eating meat makes men aggressive and horny, and controlling men was the main concern of Victorian Christianity.

Also the US is run largely for the benefit of grain farmers so of course they want us eating a lot of grain.

Hippie culture goes back to Transcendentalism, another outgrowth of Victorian Christianity.

PA said...

As Moldbug argues more convincingly than not, a lot of Leftist things don't necessarily originate with Jews but with radical Protestantism.

But that brings on another question: "do contemporary leftist Jews opportunistically promote these ideologies when otherwise they'd have faded into obscurity?"

Flavia said...

Well, shit. I mean, seriously.

Lara said...

nikcrit,
Pat may seem argumentative and too intense, but that is the type of person we need to keep Jews and others from pushing us around. We have put too many nice guys in positions of power and they have done nothing for us. We need more like Pat.

stonelifter said...

It would be interesting to see if nutritionists of professional strength-sport athletes practice the food pyramid or a defacto paleo-diet.
-----

We eat big and often. Mostly meat and main dishes. Very little fruit or vegetables. The caloric demands are much higher than folks think and you need food that is nutritionally dense.

I'm not aware of any who have nutritionist or eat paleo

UFASP said...

A person can make a similar argument that you made with diet with respect to circumcision which is effectively using a nuclear bomb to handle a mosquito.

I'm glad One is getting more ballsy on the Jewish question. It's important. Not because Jews are to blame for everything. (Responsibility begins with the individual.) But understanding Jewish motivations helps us to better contextualize the West's post-WWII dysfunction.

Identifying Jewish attempts at cultural hegemony (at the expense of European culture) is not a conspiracy theory. It's a logical response to the world we live in which Jews disproportionately control cultural levers at the expense of white identity.

It is my understanding that a person can still get a kosher meal on any domestic flight. Yet, Jews make up 2% of the population here. What other group that small is given that type of consideration?

That being said, I still have a difficult time sympathizing with fat people even if it turns out there is more to it than "calories in, calories out." Obesity still isn't a problem for most of the world.

UFASP said...

And yes, it is true that people like John Harvey Kellogg associated meat with sinful lust. So there is truth to the Protestants of this country having a strong aversion to meats and spices. (There probably is a correlation between meat and libido but I would actually that as a positive.) That being said, there's no reason why this makes looking at Jewish influence on the matter pointless or not worth while. Some of us can ingest Kevin MacDonald-esque critiques and not scapegoat. Again, there is a difference.

Anonymous said...

"It is my understanding that a person can still get a kosher meal on any domestic flight. Yet, Jews make up 2% of the population here. What other group that small is given that type of consideration?"

Jews are probably more than 2% of folks flying however. Anyway, this is probably more related to Jewish competence. I would guess there are at least several companies doing a really good job marketing and promoting kosher meals to airlines making it very easy for the airlines to offer the option. Also, if one airline does it and another doesn't, it is a point of asymmetry that gives one an advantage. Probably all the the airlines in one town use the same kosher supplier. I bet it is just really easy for the airlines to do, so they do it.

Ura Nutjob said...

Jews also put fluoride in the water and did 9/11!!

Ozymandias said...

This is a ridiculous chain of speculative logic. Nearly very Jewish event I've ever been to has a ridiculous amount of meat. I think that you're conflating "American Jews support Liberal causes" and "vegetarianism is championed by many liberals" into "Jews are to blame for vegetarianism." This is a really alt-right thing you've got going.

Plus, what do you think is in matza ball soup? It's chicken soup with a weird dumpling/noodle analog!??

Peter A said...

Sorry, there are huge holes in this theory. As Dana points out above, the traditional Ashkenazi diet is a high fat, high protein diet. You don't need pork for that - chicken fat and pastrami can get you a long way. Most Jews love meat eating. Also, a high percentage of German and Austrian physicians in the early 20th century were, in fact, Jewish, so why on earth would Jews turn their backs on the knowledge developed by Jews?

The roots of vegetarianism actually lie, like a lot of SWPL behavior, in Puritanism. There were a lot of wacky 'nutritionists' in late 19th century US and UK (like John Harvey Kellogg, a vegetarian). The first Vegetarian Society was founded in the UK in 1847. Feminism is also originally an upper class 19th century Anglo-American ideology. Unfortunately most of the ideas that are destroying WASP civilization came from WASPs in the first place.

DaFarmaY'All said...

The irony is that while "meat-eating" has been attacked by lefties and hairy-faced-vag-lapping-we're-as-ugly-as-hell-so-stop-objectifying-pretty-young-girls feminists,vegetarianism as such has never really been put forth,nor accepted,as anything but a coo-coo cult. People think vegans are stupid and they think theyre pussies. They have always thought that,and always will.A pretty girl can get away with being a veg,a homely woman or any man cannot.Vegan males are always thought of as "herbs",pretentious and silly.The main thrust of the anti-meat movement has been fear of being fat,impotent and dead. Fear of the epidemic of heart disease has driven the health movement that embraces grains and veggies.The fear of cancer has only turbo-charged the movement. Nomesayne?

Steve Johnson said...

"Jews are probably more than 2% of folks flying however. Anyway, this is probably more related to Jewish competence."

It's also almost certainly related to Jewish litigiousness.

As to the point of the post, I'm going to have to go with "not guilty" on this one. Google John Harvey Kellogg and Sylvester Graham for the deeply protestant roots of vegetarianism (really grainatarianism).

DaFarmaY'All said...

re Pat Hannagan":The Church refers to Jooze (HA!!!)as our "elder brothers". Uhm,ever heard of Cain & Abel? Nomesayne? PS: I love these philo-semites! Het could one of you guys come over and lick my butt clean? Nomesayne?

UFASP said...

"Jews are probably more than 2% of folks flying however."

This misses the point, though. In the world of egalitarian-based morality, you're not allowed to be so discerning. More whites are homeowners yet if real estate billboards don't show a black family around half the time in their ads, it's "racist." No representation per billboard based on circumstance is allowed. But I guess we'll make special cases with respect to this rule for Jewish people who fly!

Do Catholics, who make up much more of the population, get the same consideration on flights? There are many who still don't eat meat on Friday. Yet, if Catholics got catered to and Jews didn't, howls of "racism" would be heard all over the news. That's how Jews operate. I'm not blaming Jews. I'm blaming dumb whites for falling for this shell game.

"Anyway, this is probably more related to Jewish competence. I would guess there are at least several companies doing a really good job marketing and promoting kosher meals to airlines making it very easy for the airlines to offer the option."

Absolutely. But again, they are morally ALLOWED to secure their own ethnic interests. Whites can't lobby for anything on the basis of their race the way Jews can.

"Also, if one airline does it and another doesn't, it is a point of asymmetry that gives one an advantage."

Absolutely. You misunderstand. I don't have a problem with them doing it. I have a problem with whites not being able to have explicit whiteness in the same way without the media moral police wagging the finger.

"Probably all the the airlines in one town use the same kosher supplier. I bet it is just really easy for the airlines to do, so they do it."

Sure. Again, I'm not attacking Jews for wanting a kosher meal. I'm attacking the double standard securing such interests implies. Now, some retort that Jewishness is religious based and not ethnic based. It's obviously both. It's a religion dedicated to their own "racism" or ethnocentrism.

Given the reluctance of some people to blog about Jews on the so-called "alt right," I'm surprised one of the bloggers who exercises such reluctance picked this topic as one in which to portray Jewish fingerprints of all topics. That being said, it was an interesting post. Though I think that the posters who point out Protestant involvement in vegetarianism make a good point.

Really and truly, the kosher and Anglo elites have worked toward common interests for decades now.

Anonymous said...

"When one says that "Jesus was a Jew" one must consider the racial and religious aspect of what it means to be a Jew.

Was Jesus a Pharisee or Sadducee? No, he was neither. Matter of fact, he specifically abused these two sects.

Is Judaism today, from Jesus' time, of Christ's embodiment of prophecy or is it an extension of the Pharisaical sect?

In short: the Jews of today are of the Talmud which Jesus was not."

The Mosaic strand of Judaism died with their removal to Persia where they intermingled with Persians though some tried to keep separate.

What happened was that Judaism intermingled with Eastern religion and what was created was Rabbinic Judaism.

There were only 641 laws in Mosaic Judaism and the rabbis piled on more and more rules and laws and God's Word was replaced by man's traditions. Same thing happened with Catholicism.

So, you are right Jesus was not of the Talmud.

UFASP said...

At the end of the day, history informs us that traditional Christianity has more in common with Greco-Roman sensibility than Judaic. Early Christianity was neo-Platonic before Aquinas sent it in a more Aristotilean-based direction. Viewing Christianity as "Jewish" as some are apt to do is shallow. But unfortunately, even modern Christians (who don't know a thing about history) interpret it that way so it's becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.

The term "Judeo-Christian" is practically heretical in the eyes of traditional Christians (Catholics) and practicing Jews. It's a neo-con propaganda term that American dummies lap up. It's yet one more way the goy displays his foolishness.

Anonymous said...

German scientists and researchers like Gustav von Bergmann and Hilde Bruch had pioneered early 20th century work in obesity, then a relatively piddling issue.

Hilde Bruch was Jewish, so I guess that other Jews wouldn't ignore her work on account of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilde_Bruch

Anonymous said...

Vegetarianism does not exist in continental Europe, even though it continental Europe is liberal in many respects.

Is this due to an absence of certain people in the last 65 years?

S.Anonyia said...

You're wrong about hunting being a mostly "bucolic midwestern" tradition. It was first quite popular amongst Southerners. Southerners hunted way more frequently than midwesterners, probably still do today.

OneSTDV said...

For all those contending this post must be a "joke" or a Jewish "conspiracy theory", think about this. Based on the primary movers and their disproportionate representation, one could classify 20th century science (Einstein, Oppenheimer, Feynman) and even the modern technological world (Kurzweil) as a Jewish enterprise.

Is that also a "conspiracy theory" or beyond the pale of reasonable discourse?

Others have also noted that blaming vegetarianism on Anglos or Germans is totally a legitimate hypothesis but blaming vegetarianism on Jews is somehow crazy talk. Double standard huh?

------------------------------

As for the Jewish diet being meat-heavy, that's absurd. Here's the Wikipedia article making my exact point (not to mention Jews comprising a large portion of SWPL vegetarians and the link Pat provided and the link I provided in the post):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_cuisine#Ashkenazi

The Jewish love of fish goes back to ancient times. With kosher meat not always available, fish became an important staple of the Jewish diet. In Eastern Europe it was sometimes especially reserved for Shabbat. As fish is not considered meat, it can also be eaten with dairy products (although some Sefardim do not mix fish and dairy).

And even if Jews do eat meat, it's primarily chicken, not non-kosher pork, bacon, and ham popular amongst white American Christians, not to mention deer, wild boar, and other game obtained from hunting.

Coincidentally (I don't think so), the most popular Jewish meat, chicken, is not really stigmatized in the current nutritional paradigm. It's considered an "OK" meat, while ham, bacon, pork, and other fatty red meats from hunting are considered extremely unhealthy.

-------------------

Finally, is it really that far-fetched to think Jews want to fit in and that their unique food habits kept them from doing so? Eating is perhaps the most important social activity and Jews could not participate because they couldn't eat the main dish. Who wants to invite someone over for a big ham when they refuse to eat it.

Is it really far-fetched to hypothesize that Jewish academics would try to do something about that so they could fit in (we know how much lying for poltiical and personal gain goes on in academic research regarding HBD and global warming right?).

IHTG said...

You're forgetting about beef.

Also, turkey.

OneSTDV said...

You're forgetting about beef.

Also, turkey.


OK, but that's not pig, deer, lamb, etc. Those are extremely popular foods amongst Americans.

And I didn't even mention how the whole dairy/meat thing becomes a problem even when considering meat that Jews do eat, like beef. Perhaps the most American meal ever is a cheeseburger - and Jews (at least prior to their growing secularism of the late 20th century) did not eat this. And even if they did eat it, they would not have that at family gatherings out of respect for elders.

Anonymous said...

From Oliver Twist:

Mrs. Sowerberry: Is the boy mad?
Mr. Bumble: Tis not madness, Ma'am, it's meat
Mrs. Sowerberry: Meat?
Mr. Bumble: Meat, ma'am, meat! If you kept the boy on gruel this would have never have happened.
Mrs. Sowerberry: Oh my, this is what comes of being liberal.

-BWB

Peter A said...

Jews do eat lamb. It's very popular among Middle Eastern Jews. You have obviously never set foot in a Jewish deli in your life. Your theory is utterly ludicrous.

Moreover, there is a direct unbroken link between English vegetarians of the 19th century and the SWPLs of today. Why are you trying to ignore it?

Peter A said...

Vegetarianism does not exist in continental Europe, even though it continental Europe is liberal in many respects.

Is this due to an absence of certain people in the last 65 years?


Yes, upper class Anglo Saxon Protestants.

Peter A said...

Also, just to refute your crazy notion that Jews are driven by hunter envy, wild game is considered "unhealthy" by almost no one. SWPLs consider farm raised animals unhealthy. Most lefty nutritionists seem to agree that wild game is the best meat you can eat. For example, the mainstream Mayo clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/wild-game/MY01079

yes, they whine about "lead contamination" but that just means bow hunting is better.

Face it. Blaming Jews for Vegetarianism simply doesn't hold up.

IHTG said...

Although I feel uncomfortable for piling on One on his own blog by now, it's also worth noting that while Jews historically weren't hunters, they did profit handsomely from byproducts of hunting - specifically, the Eastern European fur trade.

Lucille said...

OK, but that's not pig, deer, lamb, etc. Those are extremely popular foods amongst Americans

On what basis do you think that deer and lamb are more commonly eaten than beef or turkey? As far as I know, commercial rearing of deer is near-nonexistent.

Also, your own quote from Wikipedia notes that fish is common in Ashkenazi cooking. It should go without saying that fish isn't vegetarian.

Sorry, but this post is a dud. It's pretty much baseless.

Anonymous said...

Oh please. There are hunting regulations in the book of Leviticus, and the list of kosher animals explicitly includes several species that were not then (and still are not) domesticated, and could only have been obtained by the ancient Hebrews by hunting. So...how can hunting be "anti-Jewish" if the Jewish Bible has rules for hunting?

Kosher hunting would restrict itself to kosher species, and might require an arrow to ensure bleedout (rather than a firearm), but within those parameters, there's no Torah problem with hunting. (Talmudically, I don't know -- as a Christian I don't waste my time with the Talmud).

IHTG said...

To be fair, all the historical stuff is irrelevant. OneSTDV's position (if he is serious about it) is that Jews started up or promoted vegetarianism in modern times to screw with American gentile culture.

To prove or debunk this would require a thorough examination of the history of vegetarianism in the US in the past century, and an analysis of what actually popularized it.

Anonymous said...

Never been to a Jewish deli?

Anonymous said...

Maybe we should blame the Greeks. What about Pythagoras?

Dumbo

OneSTDV said...

When I say "vegetarianism", I mean "anti-red meat." And it goes without saying that "red meat" has a very strong connection to white Christian, conservative Americans, primarily in the Bible belt and the midwestern Heartland. For example, look at how Ed Schultz (not Jewish) describes himself:

http://www.chapelboro.com/pages/9717013.php

Ed Schultz calls himself a “red meat liberal.” As a former NFL player and sportscaster, Ed is a man’s man who doesn’t mind getting a little loud (in fact, that might be the only way he knows how to talk).

Please focus on red-meat, that's the stigmatized food here. Meats from pig primarily - those are considered the worst.

There are hunting regulations in the book of Leviticus, and the list of kosher animals explicitly includes several species that were not then (and still are not) domesticated

Yes, when I think of American Jews, I think hunting. Good god, are you really arguing this?!?? What next - Asian communities really love basketball? Blacks are really into reading? And Hispanics can't get enough classical music?

wild game is considered "unhealthy" by almost no one. SWPLs consider farm raised animals unhealthy.

Oh god. Yes SWPLs don't cringe at exotic meat like deer and venison. SWPLs don't cringe at seeing chickens killed (recall Sarah Palin video). SWPLs don't consider hunting only for people from West Virginia. (Note sarcasm). Am I really arguing this!??

---------------------------

Regarding other groups promoting vegetarianism like 7th-day Adventists: was there a surge of 7th-day adventists amongst American scientists, researchers, and intellectuals at the exact same time that eating red-meat became the worst thing ever? Do the 7th-day adventists have a particular animus towards the ethnic group, i.e. Germans, who promoted the correct hypothesis on nutrition and that pioneered a lot of American meat-eating?

It just so happens that the German nutritional paradigm was irrationally rejected due to postwar enmity, number of Jewish scientists increased substantially in America, and "red meat = bad" paradigm took hold - all at the exact same time. And given what we know about Jews abstaining from eating bacon, pork, and ham and can only eat meat if not paired with dairy - is it really that far-fetched?

--------------------

And I repeat: why is it OK to blame Anglos for vegetarianism but it's absolutely beyond reason to finger Jews who have extremely obvious motivations, not to mention all sorts of other related social phenomena such as their rise amongst the intellectual class?

Steve Johnson said...

"Is it really far-fetched to hypothesize that Jewish academics would try to do something about that so they could fit in (we know how much lying for poltiical and personal gain goes on in academic research regarding HBD and global warming right?)."

It's not far-fetched on its face but it doesn't seem to be true. There actually are clear protestant roots to grainatarian culture.

If you were looking at something like affirmative action where the main beneficiaries* are Jews that's another story.

* Jews not having an upper bound quota while there exists an upper bound quota for whites that Jews (in the Ivy league, for example) take up 1/2 of - all Jews that are close to the minimum standard get accepted while borderline whites are excluded in favor of NAMs. That's a clear case.

Svigor said...

Holy crap. I thought you were joking, until the fourth paragraph. Scratch that; I knew you were joking until the fourth paragraph.

Lol! Have at it brother! I'm going to let them slide on this one. If homos and metrosexuals (but I repeat myself!) want to forgo meat, that lessens demand and lowers prices. And they're the only ones who suffer. Win-win.

Svigor said...

So...how can hunting be "anti-Jewish" if the Jewish Bible has rules for hunting?

I don't know about "anti-Jewish" or ANTI-SEMITIC!!!, but Jews and hunting are like oil and water. They repel one another. Reaching back to a dusty old book written more than an eon ago is pretty weak sauce; how can "secular" Jews exist when the term is clearly not kosher? Yet they do - millions of 'em.

(Jews know perfectly well they're bullshitting you with these kinds of non-arguments. Food for thought)

Svigor said...

I lean more towards what Dissident said - our ruling elite (many, but not all, who are Jews)strongly believe in overpopulation, reducing the carbon footprint and the like.

Then they must all hate hate hate China. And they must lament the population explosion in Africa, and want desperately to stop sending them food. Or at the least, stop sending them meat.

Cul-De-Sac Hero said...

I think the Germans are to blame for the anti-German sentiment. Conducting human experiements such as they did will do that.

Vegetarianism has become popular due to a society that has successfully removed the natural experience from the lives of its people. 60 years ago, if you asked the average person if they'd ever killed an animal for food, most would have said yes. 100 years ago, almost everyone would have said yes (probably this week). Now, most people have not even seen a farm animal and try to avoid thinking that their cheeseburger once had eyes.

It is the logical extension of Judeo-Christian religion (basically, an offshoot). The first commandment is thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say (except for food). The garden of Eden was filled with fruit to eat and all the animals lived together in peace. Veganism is simply taking these ideas to the extreme in an attempt to recreate Eden.

Pat Hannagan said...

The only information on the possible religious and or racial basis for vegetarianism, from my own experience with enforced vegetarianism (mrs was on one of those standard university vego trends) is 'the Bible' of herbalism and diet (enemas etc) is Jethro Kloss' "Back to Eden".

Check it on Amazon. Can't find it at the moment but I remember it was massive, 500+ pages and went into dietary depth of excruciating detail. Kloss was Seventh Day Adventist and, again from memory, saw that mankind had strayed from the perfect diet of Eden. Something about Methuselah living to 900+ years, (as the saying goes, "as old as Methuselah") and all the other patriarchs of the OT. All lived hundreds of years due to diet.

Looking for that book I find Kloss was inspired by Arnold Ehret, who was a Catholic German, "was a German health educator and author of several books on diet, detoxification, fruitarianism, fasting, food combining, health, longevity, naturopathy, physical culture and vitalism." (from wiki).

On the social aspect of food, and vegetarianism being associated with elitism, G. K. Chesterton's prescient short novel "The Flying Inn" is an easy and enlightening read. Here's the link if you want to read it online: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Flying_Inn

In the novel England has been overcome by an upper class revolt, fused with a "progressive Islam", over the peasantry. What a concept hey. see any similarities to the world today?

OneSTDV is definitely on to something in considering food's social value. Yes, I would think that Jews, like any other people, do consume food with social status in mind. That being said, vegetarianism pre WWII is very much an eltist Anglo-Germanic, mostly Protestant manifestation I would think. Not much evidence provided by me, just my impressions.

I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone with my anti-Anglo-Germanic take on this subject.

Pat Hannagan said...

From "The Flying Inn" re. the fusion of Islam and vegetarianism:

But I think, ladies and gentlemen, that this period is notably abbreviated by the remarkable exposition which we have heard today. For this question of the attitude of Islam toward food affords as excellent an example of its special mode of progressive purification as the more popular example of its attitude toward drink. For it illustrates that principle which I have ventured to call the principle of the Crescent: the principle of perpetual growth toward an implied and infinite perfection.

"The great religion of Islam does not of itself forbid the eating of flesh foods. But, in accordance with that principle of growth which is its life, it has pointed the way to a perfection not yet perhaps fully attainable by our nature; it has taken a plain and strong example of the dangers of meat-eating; and hung up the repellent carcass as a warning and a sign. In the gradual emergence of mankind from a gross and sanguinary mode of sustenance, the Semite has led the way. He has laid, as it were, a symbolic embargo upon the beast typical, the beast of beasts. With the instinct of the true mystic, he selected for exemption from such cannibal feasts the creature which appeals to both sides of the higher vegetarian ethic. The pig is at once the creature whose helplessness most moves our pity and whose ugliness most repels our taste.

nikcrit said...

"As far as I know, commercial rearing of deer is near-nonexistent."

Venison production and processing exists and thrives in my fine state! (lol!)

Pat Hannagan said...

Sorry, one other book from my enforced period of vegetarianism (cured my mrs by eating KFC in front of her), is the "Moosewood Cookbook".

Written by Mollie Katzen, a Jewess who is considered "the godmother of vegetarian cuisine". (http://blogs.forward.com/the-jew-and-the-carrot/142696/)

Other books by Mollie, The Enchanted Broccoli Forest, and The Vegetable Dishes I Can't Live Without.

Oh, God, this is bringing back some bad memories.

Pat Hannagan said...

Oh, and thanks Lara for your support. The Truth will out!

Anonymous said...

The first commandment is thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say (except for food).

The specific Hebrew word for "Murder" is used, not merely "kill". Genesis 9 specifically authorizes carnivory. The kosher laws implicilty do so, by spelling out terms and conditions for killing.

Oh, and fyi - the first commandment is be fruitful and multiply.

Jay M said...

Some important points regarding Christianity need to be made:

1. Jesus died for the elect and the elect only. These are the people whom God made ahead of time knowing they'll get to Heaven whereas he created everyone else knowing they'll go to Hell.

2. The above point implies that free will and Christianity are incompatible. To quote St. Augustine,

"Since God knows everything, everything is predetermined by him forever."

3. Since those who are saved are saved for life (unconditionally elected), their sainthood is effectively preserved.

Thus, to say that one has the free will to oppose the Holy Spirit's calling, and/or the Holy Spirit and the individual work together for salvation is to be in error.

All points are sound and irrefutable. If one wants to be Christian then they have no right to believe in the concept of free will. While I personally believe in free will there is a controversy surrounding it due to experiments Libet's infamous experiment:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision

OneSTDV said...

Never been to a Jewish deli?

Oh, I guess are they selling bacon, pork, and ham at Jewish delis now? (How many times do I have to repeat this?)

OneSTDV's position (if he is serious about it) is that Jews started up or promoted vegetarianism in modern times to screw with American gentile culture.

I don't know what this "trolling" bullshit is. I don't post just to cause trouble. I post what I think. And this "oh he must be joking" idea is garbage anyway because what one posts about has very little bearing on traffic. Traffic spikes are almost entirely from links, i.e. Roissy linking from his Twitter or getting linked on reddit.

As for "screwing with gentile culture", that's actually not really my point. It's more that Jews saw (see) food as a social obstacle in being part of gentile society. Food made them outsiders, so they undermined the social value of the food that made them outsiders. It makes sense to me - if everyone is doing something I can't do, convince everyone that what they're doing is bad so I can fit in better.

To prove or debunk this would require a thorough examination of the history of vegetarianism in the US in the past century, and an analysis of what actually popularized it.

I admitted to some hand-waving but there's too much "coincidental" social phenomenon to ignore that Jews likely had a big part of it. And I'm aware that vegetarianism began as a protestant movement, as Kellogg opposed meat to stop kids from masturbating.

Maybe we should blame the Greeks. What about Pythagoras?

Dumbo


Yes, and calling modern science a Jewish enterprise also warrants "dumbo" I guess.

Jews and hunting are like oil and water. They repel one another.

You know someone is really grasping when they start arguing Jews hunt. I can't think of anything less true of an ethnic group. (And that's not an anti-Jewish statement - it's just fact. Just like Southern Whites don't listen to classical music.)

I think the Germans are to blame for the anti-German sentiment.

I think we can understand where the animus arose and I don't blame any persecuted Jews for having that animus. But it was likely a factor in biasing their science.

I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone with my anti-Anglo-Germanic take on this subject.

It really pisses me off that anyone could construe this post as anti-semitic. OMG Jews comprise a large portion of scientists and maybe, just maybe, their outsider status (an uncontroversial aspect of American Jewish life) biased their conclusion! OMG, that's crazy talk!!!

Peter A said...

Yes SWPLs don't cringe at exotic meat like deer and venison.

You don't actually know any SWPLs do you? And since when is venison exotic? Every trendy restaurant in Boston serves venison, at least in season.

Most people, when they think of "red meat", think of beef, which Jews love, and eat in very large quantities. Why are you simply refusing to face the fact that Vegetarianism, like so many liberal ideologies, is completely a product of WASP thinking? Go read about Kellogg, maybe it will open your mind.

Nanonymous said...

90 comments and nobody mentioned it yet. Might as well: Adolf Hitler was vegetarian. These Jews!

commmonwealth contrarian said...

Cheap soft drinks are possibly the biggest single factor in obesity rates.

A hefty coke tax would probably send your average US libertarian's blood pressure through the roof, but there's an off change it might actually have a useful effect.

And I hear the evil Frenchies are already on to it.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if there's any data on the percentage of self-identified Jews in the US who keep kosher. I'm going to bet it's not many. I didn't know any in the heavily Jewish community I grew up in during the 60's and 70's. We got lots of flesh from the Jewish deli, including beef tongue.

I think it's disingenuous of you to use the word "vegetarianism" to include chicken and fish. It means no animal flesh, not no mammal flesh.

Just to name some major proponents of vegetarianism in the 60's-70's: Ann Wigmore and Viktoras Kulvinskas (raw food and wheatgrass), George Ohsawa and Michio Kushi (macrobiotics, which does allow a small amt of fish but is heavily grain-based),Frances Moore Lappe (Diet for a Small Planet), Laurel Robertson -- none of these folks are Jewish. Other than Ms. Katzen I can't think of others who are.

So who are these Jewish scientists who are allegedly responsible for the anti-meat, anti-fat diet?

Hravan said...

@commmonwealth contrarian

"Cheap soft drinks are possibly the biggest single factor in obesity rates.

A hefty coke tax would probably send your average US libertarian's blood pressure through the roof, but there's an off change it might actually have a useful effect."

Yes, my country recently increased taxation on sweets, ice cream, mild alcoholic drinks and soft drinks. (Btw, what would the public reaction to be if they were to do ALL that at once in the UK or US? Just curious.)
I think it's definitely a good thing to discourage people from consuming harmful things (that's as good as taxation gets, really), but I wish they hadn't included mineral water, too. To tax mineral water the same as full sugar coke? I mean, really!
Sparkling water is one of my few SWPL'ish "vices". Guess I gotta buy a damn soda stream machine or some such now.

Hravan said...

"what would the public reaction to be"

Scratch that 'to', duh.

Lucille said...

Oh, I guess are they selling bacon, pork, and ham at Jewish delis now? (How many times do I have to repeat this?)

1) Yes, some of them do, including one of my favorites. Not all of them keep kosher. But this is also besides the point because (2), you implied that Jews don't eat lamb, which was what the "Jewish deli" remark was responding to.

Also, you say, "When I say "vegetarianism", I mean "anti-red meat."

If that's what you meant, then how about just saying "anti-red meat", rather than misusing the term vegetarian?

Also, if you're talking about red meat, why go on about refusal to eat pork, which is not "red meat"? Or are you now defining "red meat" in an idiosyncratic fashion as well?

And eating wild game is also not synonymous with eating red meat. Look at all the hunters who hunt turkey, boar, et cetera.

Honestly, I'm amazed at this post. I've never seen you make so many baseless claims in one comment thread. What's up?

Lucille said...

(Not that I regularly go to Jewish delis. Most of my favorite delis are run by Greeks.

John said...

LOL, since it seems that the *calories in, calories out* theory of gaining weight is correct, and the low carb paleo nonsense is just a fantasy, it would seem Jews actually advanced the science of obesity.

Taubes, on the other hand, by substituting false theories of obesity, is merely delaying the day when we recognize that obesity is caused simply by overeating and learn to make the painful cultural changes needed persuade people to make the unwelcome sacrifice of simply eating less.

The more Taubes and those like him cater to the strong desire to avoid having to make the sacrifice of eating less (by rejecting the calories in calories out reality of weight gain), the more we dealy the day of reckoning.

The reason we are fat is simple. We no longer see looking good as a cultural or aesthetic or moral ideal. We did, once. It is no accident that just when Americans decided to abandon formality in attire and accept slovenly personal appearance, the obesity epidemic began.

The countries where people are still thin - like Japan, Thailand, parts of Europe, and fashionable cities in America like New York and Miami - are the places where people eat TONS of carbs (especially in Japan and Thailand, where the people are super-thin), but also places where being thin is seen as a VERY important cultural and aesthetic - even MORAL - ideal.

THAT is why they are thin. The more deluded people like Taubes peddle complex solutions that refuse to confront the reality of needing to eat less, the more he is a part of the problem.

I admit, I used to be a low carber, until I was forced to confront the reality that it does not work. That, and the fact that I traveled to Asia and Europe and actually OBSERVED THEIR DIET.

nikcrit said...

OT @ OneSTDV:

RE: "Super Bowl middle finger was a transparently desperate attempt at being controversial."

yeah, it seems Janet's wardrobe malfunction of a few years ago was just too prime and juicy a hype vessel. So a few years later, SB halftime-show risque is now expected. It was so obvious that this latest outrage was pre-planned.....

Ok, thanks; now go back to kvetching over your jewish-vegetarian conspiracies. (lol!)

DaFarmaY'All said...

A)Re Jewish deli:A man goes into ajewish deli and asks the waiter for chicken soup. The waiter says,"Sir please! You must try the navy bean soup! Its quite delicious,its incredible and you've never had anything liike it!!" Not wanting to argue the man says "OK". Another man sits down and asks the waiter for lentil soup. The waiter replies,"My dear fellow! You gotta try the chicken soup! Its soo good,you will never find a better chicken soup than we got here!Its unbelievable!! Try it!" As the waiter takes the oprder and begins to walk away,the first man stops him and say,"What the fuck! All day I have been thinking about chicken soup! I come in here dying for chicken soup,and you tell me NO! navy bean is better,dont have the chicken,then you tell this shmuck he's gotta have the facocta chicken fucking soup!!Whats going on here!!" The waiter icily replies."Sir,if you WANTED the chicken soup,why didnt you order the lentil?" Nomesayne?

Sheila said...

"To be fair, all the historical stuff is irrelevant. OneSTDV's position (if he is serious about it) is that Jews started up or promoted vegetarianism in modern times to screw with American gentile culture.

To prove or debunk this would require a thorough examination of the history of vegetarianism in the US in the past century, and an analysis of what actually popularized it."

**********************

Will wonders never cease? I actually agree with IHTG here. All of those insisting that One is anti-semitic or merely stupid are the ones ignoring his repeatedly stated point. Diet and food and communal eating are areas where Jews were/are traditionally outside the norm in what was once White, Christian America. They've been in the vanguard of every other movement to tear down existing social structures and mores to make themselves more comfortable; why not here? While those documenting the pre-WWII history of Protestant Whites pushing various grain-based diets for various purported health and ethical reasons (such as Kellogg, Graham, etc.) are correct, what One is referring to (as IHTG noted) is the modern (i.e. post WWII and really post 1965) variant of vegetarianism, which primarily stigmatizes red meat. Some of you are lacking in basic logic. Stating "Many Jews eat bacon, bacon is Christian, Jews support Christian food" does not logic make. The modern variant of vegetarianism has a heavy Jewish component, so far as I know. As far as what proportion of its practitioners are Jews, has anyone ever done a study documenting this? When I think back to all those I knew, from High School on upwards, who were vegetarians, they were exclusively women. The most militant among them were gay and/or Jewish. My personal anecdote does not a documented study make. Does anyone have any figures on post 1965 vegetarianism?

Do some Jews eat bacon? Sure. Lots of them have Christmas trees, too. All of which signifies . . . nothing much, other than they can/will co-opt whatever they choose. This does not make these things intrinsically or historically Jewish. Those arguing the hunting point are desperately grasping at straws. Sure, the IDF fights, but most modern American Jews are more in the mold of Brian Goldman, the little f--k who ran off and left the cab driver in Philadelphia fighting the groids and then insisted there was no racial hatred involved - the blame lay with all those White bystanders who didn't do anything!

Jay M said...

"The reason we are fat is simple. We no longer see looking good as a cultural or aesthetic or moral ideal. We did, once. It is no accident that just when Americans decided to abandon formality in attire and accept slovenly personal appearance, the obesity epidemic began."

This right here is the direct result of the unfortunate utilitarian influences upon society, which could be seen in the architecture with a vengeance. The decline of viewing beauty as a cultural and moral ideal is just a part of an even bigger monster, an egalitarian, nihilistic monster. Aesthetics give society a sense of time and place, if a neighborhood founded in the 17th century has colonial architecture and narrow roads it is a testament to a greater continuity.

The completely utilitarian architecture of the current age, and numerous trends and attitudes converging all point to no justification for an optimistic future. Over a decade ago, scientists even questioned the importance of men, the question of course having a utilitarian premise, and even projected that everyone in the future would be women born in artificial wombs! It is easy to infer that because (note the common link):

1. Egalitarian standards so every fat slob in sweats could feel as beautiful as a debutante (advertisers know very well that such egalitarian beauty campaigns are bound to fail).

2. Feminists reinforcing the attitude of, "I have had many sexual partners and you showed restraint and waited until marriage to have sex and embraced your natural femininity and despite that I am your moral and social equal” attitude that has emerged in part due to slut shaming being perceived as “wrong”.

3. Free will losing headway as a philosophical concept with the attendant negative implications for its (alleged) non-existence.

4. Architecture and city planning being based completely off utilitarian instead of humanistic principles.

5. Anti-circumcision fascists (who dishonestly equate having an appendix cut off with having a vagina stitched or clitoris removed, or male circumcision to female circumcision ) and the hatred for and dismantling of everything beautiful and inspiring that society has built up the direction the world and its intellectual framework are going to lead to a bleak future.

The movie “Idiocracy” has had a president and his staff in the White House (do you really think there will be a White House by then, especially with no one intelligent enough to maintain it?! The Gray Cube would be more accurate! With upgrades every few months to keep suppliers in business of course, long lasting quality be damned), all looked very casually and oddly dressed. That is the future we’re looking at with its lowest common denominator egalitarianism. And you thought Ronald Reagan’s tacky brown suits were bad enough!

OneSTDV said...

Thank you Sheila for exactly getting everything that I've been saying.

Lara said...

Here is the incident Sheila is referring to:
http://thedp.com/index.php/article/2012/01/brian_goldman_flashback_to_a_flashmob

stonelifter said...

Excellent post JayM.

Thank you for reminding me beauty is both a cultural and moral ideal.

Rose said...

Thrasymachus and many of the others nailed it.

There are some Jews that despise whites and they are to be criticized and pointed out... I've done this. But to link every malady with Jews??? This is laziness and slander of the worst kind.

People who keep wanting to blame Jews for all of liberal ills are ignorant about Progressive history or just plain history. Nathaniel Hawthorne was quite nasty to his Puritan forebears when he wrote the "Scarlet Letter" and he sounds exactly like his contemporaries of the 1800s. Many abolitionists were claiming that blacks were the intellectual equal of whites in their denunciations of slavery.

Roger Williams, had them all beat by 200 years, and has not been given his due about his radicalism.

Williams on indians:

"Boast not proud English, of thy birth & blood;
Thy brother Indian is by birth as Good.
Of one blood God made Him, and Thee and All,
As wise, as fair, as strong, as personal."

It's all good until that last line, and given his other writings and views on co-mingling, he probably means their differences are just superficial and cultural.

Rose said...

Sheila,
Your post makes some good points and they should be discussed without fear.

The problem that I and the other posters have is that this charge against a group (and starting with the 1930s, thereby ignoring the American progressive movement's attitudes toward food), is troubling and unfair.

The people who have promulgated vegetarianism have done a very bad thing so we need to be careful with the indictments.

Anonymous said...

Personally, I view this absurd Jew blaming over everything has another manifestation of white decline. Anyone with even a smattering of history knows that leftism in general is an intellectual creation of white societies, yet we whites have lost even the back bone to take responsibility for our own failings and instead whine about how are victims of the nefarious Jews. It is too absurd. If anything, the Jews imbibed leftism from us.

We are not even men enough to own up to the fact that leftism is our own child and prefer to wallow in self-pity. I dont really give a shit one way or another about the Jews, but it makes me hang my head in shame that whites actually PREFER to see themselves as victims!

When a people evinces a palpable preference for blaming its problems on others, it has lost the capacity for initiative and bold action, and has become a weak people. In our great days we never blamed others. We knew if we failed, it was our fault. The Jews never blame others, they just get on with life and succeed, no matter what the obstacles.

How come the Jews are able to succeed in the most appalling conditions of injustice and oppression, but our noble selves cannot even withstand the supposed machinations of a tiny minority? Even if Jews were selling poison, who forced US to buy it? The fact that we bought means it is OUR responsibility. The Jews never would have sold us the poison if we did not want to buy it - every good salesman merely answers a need. The Chinese did not buy this poison. The Japanese did not. We did. And in fact, the Jews are merely selling us our own creating. They have added nothing new to leftism or progressivism, they have merely recycled the attitudes and mentality of our own great philosophers and writers and repackaged it for a modern audience.

What a pathetic people we have become, a bunch of whiners and blame shifters who lack even the manhood to admit our own mistakes.

And Sheila, I wouldnt crow so much about that cowardly Jew Goldman. Every day unearths new stories of whites acting in pathetically frightened and cowardly ways towards blacks and others. We are very far from being our old warrior selves. In todays world, I would wager the Jews have us beat in terms of physical courage.

Dissident said...

"In todays world, I would wager the Jews have us beat in terms of physical courage."

That's stretching it a bit, in my opinion.

There is much documented evidence and easily provable and factual prose, that clearly indicts many intellectual Jews for their avarice towards Christian, white-European, and western society.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that they compose the de-facto conspiracy that so many espouse, but they are clearly guilty of much hostility and contempt for our style of civilization. No less an authority, than Aleksandr Solzhentisyn implicates them in Russian Communism, as being overwhelmingly involved in that bloody political movement.

They've got skeletons aplenty, much like the rest of us.

Aaron B. said...

Taubes's point was simply that anything involving Germans and science was considered suspect after WWII because of the connection to Mengele et al. But it was made more extreme because eugenics had been very popular in the USA before that time, and everyone was busy rewriting the history books and pretending they'd never heard of it. Not just Jews, everyone. So they bent over backwards, basically throwing out entire lines of research the Germans had been working on (even if the Germans in question were Jewish), especially anything that might lead toward any sort of genetic determinism. In the case of diet and nutrition, that meant the metabolic hypothesis was untouchable, so they had to come up with other theories. Unfortunately, the untouchable theory happened to have been the right one.

People are reading way too much into One's idea here. He's not saying there's some long-standing conspiracy by Jews to turn us all into vegetarians. But if you have a group of people who generally don't eat something like pork, then they're going to exert societal pressure to take that off the menu. It may be completely unconscious, but it will happen. At a minimum, they'll vote with their dollars by not buying it, or by not frequenting places where others are eating it. Beyond that, they may petition schools and other organizations to avoid the food in question. That doesn't require any shady conspiracies; just people trying to mold their environment to the way they like it. And if this group happens to be very influential in politics and the media, then they'll make more headway than if they weren't.

Say I don't like country music -- in fact I hate it so much that I avoid it with religious fervor. I won't even watch a movie that has any country in the soundtrack, or buy a cable package that includes any country channels. I go to some effort to make sure I never hear the stuff. Say further that I have several million compatriots who feel the same way, and we tend to be much wealthier and more influential than the average country fan. Don't you think that would have an effect on how likely you were to hear country music being played at a bar or restaurant after a while?

By the way, to the person who said pork isn't red meat, yes it is. "The Other White Meat" was a silly marketing campaign by the Pork Board, which decided to push for the most extremely lean (and flavorless) pork possible for "health" reasons. Not coincidentally, after several years of this campaign, we got a stretch of some of the worst hog prices ever, when some farmers were actually euthanizing baby pigs because that was cheaper than feeding them. Marketing nonsense aside, if beef and lamb are red meat, then so is pork, for the same reasons.

There are also plenty of self-declared vegetarians who eat eggs, dairy, fish and/or even some occasional chicken, so One is also not wrong in painting the phenomenon as primarily anti-red-meat. Take a vegetarian on a date and order the low-fat chicken alfredo for yourself, and she probably won't say a word about it; order a rare steak and go get bacon bits from the salad bar to put on your baked potato, and you'll get a lecture.

Aaron B. said...

By the way, it's kind of funny that people following the Old Testament would be vegetarian:

"And it came to pass after many days, that Cain offered, of the fruits of the earth, gifts to the Lord. Abel also offered of the firstlings of his flock, and of their fat: and the Lord had respect to Abel, and to his offerings. But to Cain and his offerings he had no respect: and Cain was exceeding angry, and his countenance fell."

Clearly, God prefers bacon over lettuce.

Anonymouse said...

Regarding how much Western Christianity owes the Jews, it's worth noting that European Christianity was heavily influenced by Gentile (Greek) philosophy and Gentile (Roman) organization. Christians who fetishize the Old Testament tend to be Christian Zionists who have a highly literal interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Such Christians really should be considered heretics in light of how they worship the old foreskin collecting tribal god of the Hebrews with the same amount of importance as the Christian God of the New Testament.

dana said...

cant we just stipulate in perpetuity that:

a. intellectuals promote stupid ideas

b. in all times and places where jews are emancipated they become intellectuals in large numbers

c. jews have an activist streak

therefore:

d. at all times when intellectuals have great influence in the west, jews will be at the forefront (along with all the other intellectuals) of whatever destructive idea-based nonsense is going around at the time

DaFarmaY'All said...

Yes Because Jooze are stupid. They are smart enought o be dominat,but so twisted,screwed up,and anti-white,that whatever they touch,as Joe Kennedy said,turns to shit. America would be vastly better off if the first Joo to land here had found himself swinging form a rope!Nomesayne?

UFASP said...

"Regarding how much Western Christianity owes the Jews, it's worth noting that European Christianity was heavily influenced by Gentile (Greek) philosophy and Gentile (Roman) organization. Christians who fetishize the Old Testament tend to be Christian Zionists who have a highly literal interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Such Christians really should be considered heretics in light of how they worship the old foreskin collecting tribal god of the Hebrews with the same amount of importance as the Christian God of the New Testament."

Exactly. Too bad only you, me, and like six other people actually get this, though. Certainly the anti-intellectual neo-con invested "Judeo-Christian" crowd can't be bothered to turn a page of history outside of their "good book" to find out how ridiculous they are in actuality.

UFASP said...

Indeed, Plato's philosophical ideas (as opposed to literal political teachings) had far greater influence on the workings and administration and shape of traditional European Christianity than any Jewish figure can be said to have had on the Church. Christ was the founder and the ideal example of a Christian, of course. But the religion valued ideals because Greco-Roman thinking put an emphasis on them in the first place when the two civilizations kicked started Western metaphysical thought.

OneSTDV said...

Thank you Aaron B for getting exactly what I've been saying.

Personally, I view this absurd Jew blaming over everything has another manifestation of white decline.

At least in this post (and every post I write about Jews), no one is doing that!

Read Aaron B's first comment for why this isn't a "conspiracy." Good god this is really starting to piss me off because this post has nothing to do with a "conspiracy" and was spurred by a fricking science writer not some KMac acolyte noting (partly Jewish) social bias in academic research.

Lara said...

"In todays world, I would wager the Jews have us beat in terms of physical courage."

No, they don't. Other than that, your comment made some good points.

Sheila said...

One, re your mention of how this sort of "Jew-hater alert! Jew-hater alert!" seems to go out to all and sundry whenever you have a post even mentioning Jews -- it occurs to me that the Jewish response to any sort of discussion of Jewish behavior or responsibility for anything is similar to the black manner of physically attacking Whites. It's a group beatdown. It's almost like there's a conspiracy (gasp! Yes, I went there!) so that commenters start coming out of the wood work to deny and argue and insist that they, alone, are allowed to set the parameters of the debate. For example - Rose - your comment is fairly innocuous and moderate on the surface. However, who are you to say that my points may be discussed "without fear" but that, at the same time, we need to be "careful" not to unjustly accuse the Jews? Same with Dana, here. Valid points, but I would argue they don't go far enough. And why must we all "agree" with your statements if some of us feel that they are incorrect? Blacks do the same thing, of course - demanding that they set the parameters of the debate and they choose which words we are allowed to use. I reject all of these limits by any protected group. I'm seeing more and more Jewish censorship at heretofore relatively open sites, which will discuss race differences without limit, will discuss Muslim beliefs and social pathologies endlessly, but heaven forfend anyone mention the damned Jews.

nikcrit said...

Dana says,
"cant we just stipulate in perpetuity that:
a. intellectuals promote stupid ideas
b. in all times and places where jews are emancipated they become intellectuals in large numbers
c. jews have an activist streak
therefore:
d. at all times when intellectuals have great influence in the west, jews will be at the forefront (along with all the other intellectuals) of whatever destructive idea-based nonsense is going around at the time."


To me, this is the comment that best nails it. And part of the reason that is so is because it doesn't try to be overly conclusive in cause-and-effect attributions.
To me, many of the other comments, dare say 'theories,' are plausible conjecture ----- but that is not enough. Plus, many 'things' ----- trends, movements, causes ------ are multi-sourced phenomena.
It's pretty clear to me that a pre-determined animus toward jews, coupled with some of that aforementioned plausible conjecture, is what drove many of the theories articulated in the above comments.
What Dana says covers that; her measured view allows virtually all the other 'theories' to be POSSIBLE without getting overly speculative and even conspiratorial.

Sheila,
I could easily be wrong, but I can't help but reflexively speculate about your personal connections or lack thereof to Judaism when I note the sort-of relentlessness to some of your anti-Jewish screeds; you seem very reasonable and analytical but yet sometimes come to conclusions that I frankly believe are fanatical and off; (Note: I fully realize you likely don't care personally that I think that, but I note it to point out how I think it contrasts with other, more measured thoughts you've rendered.
Here, I recall the time a month or so ago in a post at this blog in which you ventured that there was 'no way' Obama would voluntarily leave the White House if he lost his re-election bid. (Did I remember right? And if so, really?)

Anonymous said...

UFASP,

It's a point we need to hammer over and over again. I'm not Christian myself but I recognize that Jewish supremacists and philo-Semitic Zionist Christians shouldn't be allowed to take credit for or warping a significant part of our civilization. To illustrate the point of traditional European Christianity versus a philo-Semitic form of Christianity, one need only look at the Anabaptists during the Reformation who drew the ire of both Catholics and other Protestants for their obsession with the Hebrew Bible. The Anabaptists sought to build their ideal "Christian" community by modeling it after Hebrew civilization, including practicing polygamy. They declared Muenster to be "New Jerusalem."

Jay M said...

"But the religion valued ideals because Greco-Roman thinking put an emphasis on them in the first place when the two civilizations kicked started Western metaphysical thought."

Like I have said elsewhere, Jesus was a product of his particular environment, which was had Roman aqueducts, surgery, roads, protection, and law. Rome of course continued the Greek philosophical tradition, and many educated Jews in that time and place were Hellenized Jews, and Jesus was most likely influenced from them and their Hellenized Judaism. The Bible also implicitly mentions Roman respect for the local culture as evidenced by the Passover ritual in the Bible where Barnabas was spared over Jesus. Pilate didn't want to have Jesus executed, he'd rather execute the murderer instead, yet he respected the locals' wishes. This is the basis for much Antisemitism, yet if Christianity is true then God predestined the event in the first place and created that crowd knowing full well they'd have an irresistible, predestined urge to vote for Jesus' execution.

Christianity is essentially Platonism for the masses. Omnipotence, omnipresence, perfection, and the unmoved mover were originally Greek views.

Anonymous said...

"Jewish supremacists and philo-Semitic Zionist Christians shouldn't be allowed to warp or take credit for a significant part of our civilization."

Better worded.

Anonymous said...

Y'all can talk about Jews all you want, I'm not stopping you. I just don't happen to agree with this particular points.

The bulk of interest in vegetarianism since 1965(in the broad sense) is very much tied in with the counterculture's interest in Eastern religion and practices. Well, that's where vegetarian diets have the deepest cultural history, as well as a direct tie-in to various Hindu/Yogic or Buddhist practices.

All the gurus/teachers have promoted vegetarianism. In the case of Macrobiotics, diet is the central practice. Macrobiotic guru Michio Kushi's role in the promotion of a grain-based diet cannot be underestimated.

On the political side of things, Frances Moore Lappe's Diet For A Small Planet was hugely influential. She's not Jewish. Someone mentioned Mollie Katzen, but other major veggie cookbook authors are not, such as the Laurel's Kitchen trio, and Edward Espe Brown and Deborah Madison of the CA Zen Centers.

So who are these Jews who have pushed vegetarianism on the poor goyim? Please name names.

ben tillman said...

I always detetcted a strain of ethnopoliticsin the medical community's antipathy to Atkins in the 1970's, and I was always amused by the exchange in Woody Allen's Sleeper regarding health food, and I have little doubt that vegetarianism is largely a Jewish project. They certainly are much more likely to practice vegetarianism than the rest of us are in the US.

Don't forget that Jews have been exposed to the diet of civilization for thousands of years longer than Northern Eurpoeans (and Amerindians for that matter) and are presumably better adapted to it.

Mendacious Moldbug said...

The popularity of vegetarianism is clearly due to a Calvinist conspiracy! The atrocious diet is just being pushed so the non-elect die off faster. After all, Cromwell was known to enjoy a hefty shank of ham while his roundhead pawns had to make do with mealy cornbread.

OneSTDV said...

The bulk of interest in vegetarianism since 1965(in the broad sense) is very much tied in with the counterculture's interest in Eastern religion and practices. Well, that's where vegetarian diets have the deepest cultural history, as well as a direct tie-in to various Hindu/Yogic or Buddhist practices.


I 100% agree and I've made this point in just about every vegetarianism post I've made.

But who's to say those interested in promoting Eastern mysticism and food over Western red-meat were not Jews themselves.

I suppose you could argue that it's actually East Asians and South Asians in medicine (we know there's a lot of them) who are promoting vegetarianism. But they didn't really have any influence until the 80s and it seems like they're more medical doctors rather than researchers. Though I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth there.

Anonymous said...

Are Jews to blame for peanut butter?

Are Jews to blame for polyester?

Are Jews to blame for lava lamps?

Are Jews to blame for leaf blowers?

I mean when you think about it, the possibilities are endless.

Good gravy. It is hilarious.

I mean if you are going to pick something to pin on the Jews, I guess vegetarianism is pretty innocuous, but it is just so silly.

OneSTDV said...

I mean if you are going to pick something to pin on the Jews, I guess vegetarianism is pretty innocuous, but it is just so silly.

Due to the seminal achievements and gross over-representation of Jews amongst 20th century scientists, especially physicists, is it also "so silly" to "pin" 20th century science and modern technology (Zuckerberg, Google guys, Kurzweil, etc...) on Jews as well?

Anonymous said...

OneSTDV:

Jews are probably overrepresented percentage-wise in most of these Eastern religion-based groups, but I wouldn't say they have inordinate influence, or that their beliefs in whatever path they signed on to are any different than the gentiles on the same path.

Anonymous said...

"Due to the seminal achievements and gross over-representation of Jews amongst 20th century scientists, especially physicists, is it also "so silly" to "pin" 20th century science and modern technology (Zuckerberg, Google guys, Kurzweil, etc...) on Jews as well?"

Don't know what you are getting at here. Anyway, you are an HBD guy, you know why Jews are over represented. They are very smart on average. They suffer from the weaknesses of others in that range. I just thought the vegetarian thing was funny. The one thing the Ashkenazim could do to screw us would be to band together and outbreed us, but they do just the opposite and they marry outside their group. Are some Jews a-holes, sure, but so are tons of others. To me the vegetarian thing is so weak. I mean Jews promoting vegetarianism is about as harmless social agenda as can be imagined and I don't even think it exists much. Anyway, the way I see it, Jews are the least of our troubles. Would that all minorities had their flaws.

Full disclosure: I am not Jewish, and have no Jewish ancestry.

Anonymous said...

"Would that all minorities had their flaws."

Really, more accurately, would that all minorities had their traits.

OneSTDV said...

To me the vegetarian thing is so weak. I mean Jews promoting vegetarianism is about as harmless social agenda as can be imagined

Are you kidding me?!?! Let's ignore how food underpins all culture, including traditional American culture.

Let's just focus on what vegetarianism (a term I use to mean the low-fat, low-protein, high-carb, whole grain, anti-meat, anti-saturated fat, etc... modern nutritional paradigm) is essentially responsible for the unbelievable rate of disease and obesity we're currently facing.

Every time you see an obese person or someone suffering from diabetes and many forms of cancer, you can thank vegetarians (generally defined).

OneSTDV said...

OK, fast food, women outside the home who no longer cook good meals for their families, and the explosion of processed foods also play a big role. But even then, the flawed nutritional paradigm helps get bad foods out there. I can't tell you how many times I've seen fat people gorge on some processed crap just because it says "low-fat" or "reduced calories" on the package.

Anonymous said...

"I can't tell you how many times I've seen fat people gorge on some processed crap just because it says "low-fat" or "reduced calories" on the package."

Look, if there is one thing I learned from years of sitting on my butt eating junk food and yet not getting fat, it is that obesity (given the unlimited calories available these days) is genetic.

I have have eaten every regimen there is; high protein, high carb, junk food, vegetarian. I have done sedentary. I have done active. I have done weights. I have done the sofa. It doesn't matter. My BMI doesn't move more than a point. And I never feel hungry.

It is genetic.

Love, ya.

Seriously, I mean that.

Weight is still genetic.

UFASP said...

"It's a point we need to hammer over and over again. I'm not Christian myself"

As a non-believer myself, I also agree.

"but I recognize that Jewish supremacists and philo-Semitic Zionist Christians shouldn't be allowed to take credit for or warping a significant part of our civilization."

Exactly. Even though Christianity is a large part of our problem with its universal morality, it's hard not to be a little protective of it if for no other reason than for its historical and aesthetic roles within Europe (many of which were positive). For example, the rehabilitation of Rome was spear-headed by the Church. And the Catholics have always been promoters of education and not JUST superstition as the mainstream stereotypes them.

To the extent that the faith was able to bolster up European excellence, it did through those older pagan ideals, though. Jesus himself was a great man. But the interpretation of the Jesus story by weaklings within the faith for their own posterity has always been in conflict with those pagan standards and European peoples' long term interests. So there's this dialectical tension that at least makes the religion complicated and interesting so it's not something I easily dismiss even if I disagree with it fundamentally. Today, it's so completely obvious how the evolution of at least certain aspects of Christianity have harmed us as a biological entity that to not see it is a thing of willful blindness in itself.

"To illustrate the point of traditional European Christianity versus a philo-Semitic form of Christianity, one need only look at the Anabaptists during the Reformation who drew the ire of both Catholics and other Protestants for their obsession with the Hebrew Bible."

Catholics in general are not concerned with trying "to understand" the Bible like most Protestants are obsessed with doing. It's this obsession that causes a new group to form every third Monday.

"The Anabaptists sought to build their ideal "Christian" community by modeling it after Hebrew civilization, including practicing polygamy. They declared Muenster to be "New Jerusalem.""

To put a twist on an old anti mantra: It's people like them that make me ashamed to be white. heh

"Christianity is essentially Platonism for the masses. Omnipotence, omnipresence, perfection, and the unmoved mover were originally Greek views."

Yeah. Aquinas was big on the unmoved mover. To his credit, he was bigger on Aristotle (who was more grounded) than Plato (with his "realm of forms"). I'm a Nietzschean so I don't particularly obsess about realist metaphysics. But if one insists on being inside metaphysical "universality," so to speak, Aristotle (as opposed to Plato or Kant or Descartes or Hegel) is where you want to be if you want to be in a position of strength in terms of arguing for traditionalism. This is perhaps why I can stomach and even admire some Catholics while the vast majority of Protestants have almost always rubbed me the wrong way. (Even though ordinary Catholics do not understand philosophy, their faith tends to not emphasize evangelizing and they have a degree of stoicism that the heretical strands lack. They are also (at least in theory) "blindly" following the orders of men who are wise. It is an elitist faith, unlike say, a Baptist faith or a Methodist faith.)

I'm of the mind that giving into "objective morality" or whatever one wishes to call it is already conceding too much, though. I really tried with Christianity and I just couldn't get there...even though SOME of them have convincing arguments about being that no new atheist has likely heard of.

UFASP said...

I think a much more interesting post (no offense) could address the way in which mostly Jewish intellectuals within the neo-con movement have worked with opportunistic "reverends" like Falwell to recenter Christianity for their own political ends. It's a much easier case to make than the dieting charge, too.

OneSTDV said...

Weight is still genetic.

Relative weight is likely genetic and surely genetics plays a big role in obesity in general.

But obesity rates have absolutely skyrocketed, along with diabetes, cancer, acne, and other modern diseases, only in the last 50 years or so. So unless Westerners underwent some gross genetic change in the last 50 years, there must be an environmental component.

For how uncommomn fatness was just 100 years ago, here's a post from Mangan:

http://mangans.blogspot.com/2010/12/protein-leverage-hypothesis-of-obesity.html

UFASP said...

But I understand that other people blog about it (sorta sometimes) and you want to do your own thing. So again, it wasn't meant to be a jab.

Peter A said...

But obesity rates have absolutely skyrocketed, along with diabetes, cancer, acne, and other modern diseases, only in the last 50 years or so

You are aware, are you not, that per capita meat consumption increased during that time? Red meat consumption has declined slightly since the 80s but has been stable for the past decade. Chicken consumption has skyrocketed (maybe chicken is the problem?)

Here's the data

http://www.meatami.com/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/48781

Vegetarians are not the people getting fat.

Anonymous said...

"Don't know what you are getting at here. Anyway, you are an HBD guy, you know why Jews are over represented. They are very smart on average."

They certainly are smart, but they are also very ethnocentric. When something new comes out, they ask themselves: "Is it good for the Jews?" while Whites will ask themselves: "Is it good for me/Is it good for humans?"

Aaron B. said...

A *tendency* toward obesity is certainly genetic, and there have always been outliers at both ends of the range: people who keep getting fatter no matter what, and people who stay thin no matter what. But the vast majority of people are in the middle, where they stay reasonably fit for part of their lives, usually at least until their 20s, and then they start putting on extra weight. Their genes may make that possible, but it wouldn't happen without the wrong kinds of foods. It didn't used to happen to so many people, and it still doesn't happen in societies that don't eat modern processed foods.

Yes, red meat consumption increased at one time, but then it decreased, and saturated fat consumption dropped due to the widespread replacement of animal fats like butter and lard with vegetable seed oils. At the same time, heart disease, diabetes, and the other "metabolic diseases" climbed steadily. If you want to see strong correlation, compare the climb of those diseases with the increased consumption of sugar (especially fructose), industrial seed oils, and refined grains.

Incidentally, a fascinating bit in Good Calories, Bad Calories talks about people with lipodystrophy, where one part of the body insists on growing more and more obese, even while other parts of the body are emaciated and starving. According to the mainstream thinking that obesity is all about overeating and sloth, are these people eating too much or too little?

Anonymous said...

"But obesity rates have absolutely skyrocketed, along with diabetes, cancer, acne, and other modern diseases, only in the last 50 years or so."

Yup, you betcha. Those folks don't get the exercise they need and food is way cheap. Still they were disposed to those frailties.

Lots of people have clogged arteries, too. Especially people who eat the fabled midwestern diet like my husband. Four food groups: Meat, cheese, potatoes and dessert. Yet the technicians tell him he is one of only two guys they had ever seen to have absolutely nothing in his arteries. He is a total desk jockey. And he is 50. It is genetic.

Being constitutionally disposed to something is real.

I will agree with the obvious facts that modern life allowed those so disposed to reach their (unhealthy) potential.

So, will Obama care save 'em? Or will they be put on a "program". LOL

Anonymous said...

"They certainly are smart, but they are also very ethnocentric. When something new comes out, they ask themselves: "Is it good for the Jews?" while Whites will ask themselves: "Is it good for me/Is it good for humans?"

Like I said, Jews are smart.

Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as the person who can eat whatever he wants and stay thin - yes, the law of theormodynamics applies to all of us, lol.

Studies have shown that thin people actually eat ridiculously small amounts without realizing that this is what they are doing. I have seen this first hand in action having lived with thin people who firmly believed they could eat whatever they wanted and stay thin. They even believed they ate huge amounts. It was quite funny. They all ate an amount sufficient for small rodents.

Now, the reason why these thin people ate less is not clear - it could be psychological, it could be physiological. From my own experience, of eating lots and then learning to eat less, I suspect it is psychological for nearly everyone. The fact that most people were thin before the 60s supports the idea that it is psychological.

BTW, I want to thank one of the commenters earlier for that link for a detailed debunking of the carb-obesity connection. That provides an excellent explanation of why carbs have no connection to obesity, something that is easily observable (Asia, anyone?), but it was good to read the science of it. I had no idea that red meat can provoke the same or HIGHER insulin response than REFINED carbs!

Not that this is likely to convince OneSTDV or any of his co-religionists. People believe the myths they like, and evidence be damned. The fact that the low carbers could ignore the existence of Asia altogether for so long - a massive refutation of their theories - pretty much sums up the mentality of the low carbers.

Anonymous said...

"Studies have shown that thin people actually eat ridiculously small amounts without realizing that this is what they are doing. I have seen this first hand in action having lived with thin people who firmly believed they could eat whatever they wanted and stay thin. They even believed they ate huge amounts. It was quite funny. They all ate an amount sufficient for small rodents.

"Now, the reason why these thin people ate less is not clear - it could be psychological, it could be physiological."


Lemme guess the reason is...

genetic.


I may eat like a rodent, but I have no desire to eat more. Why is that? Why does the girl the size of a house always feel hungry?

Well?

And when I do more exercise I feel hungrier, eat more and stay the same weight.

Freaky, huh?

NO.

It is genetic.

My mom, grandmas, etc, were skinny, too. Some had chubby hubbies, but I didn't get those genes. So, I am thin.

Anonymous said...

"detailed debunking of the carb-obesity connection. That provides an excellent explanation of why carbs have no connection to obesity, something that is easily observable (Asia, anyone?),"


hey maybe Asians have different genes.

Ya, think?

Anonymous said...

I may eat like a rodent, but I have no desire to eat more. Why is that? Why does the girl the size of a house always feel hungry?

Like I said, dude, you could easily have had an upbringing that in some way insulated you from psychological pressures that affect others, lol.

I used to be hungry all the time, then I realized I had a food addiction that was psychological in origin, and now I am no longer hungry all the time and I eat like a rodent. Freaky, huh? lol.

And the fact that 80% of the population pre-1960 was the same way clearly says that the causes are not genetic, lol.

In any event, my point as not that the causes are not genetic. Obviously on some level they are (we have genes that make us store fat if we eat too much). My point was that the culprit is not phyiological here, and that there are no such people who can eat huge amounts and not gain weight.

Anonymous said...

hey maybe Asians have different genes.

Ya, think?


Maybe. Is that why people who study these things use cross-population studies?

Is that why Taubes - to prove his thesis - relies heavily on studies concerning non-European population with different genes governing digestion? (although Taubes ignores the studies which disprove his thesis and mis-reports the ones he discusses, as that link shows).

Hmmmm, food for thought. Ya think?

Svigor said...

It is the logical extension of Judeo-Christian religion (basically, an offshoot). The first commandment is thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say (except for food). The garden of Eden was filled with fruit to eat and all the animals lived together in peace. Veganism is simply taking these ideas to the extreme in an attempt to recreate Eden.

Just drop the religious arguments. I mean, really, now. Throughout the OT, before and after Moses and the Commandments, the Lord's good servants slaughter animals for food and offerings.

I won't even bother with the fact that, depending on how the original texts are read, the 10 Commandments are actually a smaller number of commandments, run-on sentences that amount to (basically) "thou shalt not covet they neighbor's stuff, or his wife, or kill him, or," etc. Thy neighbor. I.e., thy co-tribalist. Which fits better with some of God's other commandments, like, "annihilate tribe x, y, and z."

P.S., "Judeo-Christian" is sorta like "Georgian-Jeffersonian," "White-Red Russian," etc. Not quite oxymoronic, but definitely nonsensical.

How come nobody says "Judeo-Christo-Mohametean"? Christ was put to death at the behest of the Hebrews, for crying out loud. Judaic scripture excoriates him.

OneSTDV said...

Regarding Asians and carbs:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-asian-paradox-how-can-asians-eat-so-much-rice-and-not-gain-weight/#axzz1lAwPFBh9

Svigor said...

(And that's not an anti-Jewish statement - it's just fact. Just like Southern Whites don't listen to classical music.)

I do. And my snowflakiness totally refutes your generalization. So there! :P

There are some Jews that despise whites and they are to be criticized and pointed out... I've done this. But to link every malady with Jews??? This is laziness and slander of the worst kind.

People who keep wanting to blame Jews for all of liberal ills are ignorant about Progressive history or just plain history.


I see people who work to absolve Jews of any blame for anything, far more than I see people who want to blame Jews for everything. There are hordes of the former; where are the latter, aside from the occasional crank?

As for leftism and liberalism and whatever, well, Jews are neither, generally, unless preceded by "pseudo" or "faux."

Anyone with even a smattering of history knows that leftism in general is an intellectual creation of white societies

Again, Jews are not leftists, any more than Blacks are leftists. They're "who-whom?"-ers. Totally different animal.

Regarding how much Western Christianity owes the Jews

A question only an ANTI-SEMITE!!! could ask with eyes wide open, really; the answer is a negative number.

cant we just stipulate in perpetuity that:

No. Intellectuals promote all kinds of ideas, but Jews are pretty much absent from the ranks of people promoting survival for Whites. "Who-whom?" has more explanatory power.

This thread, like most that put Jooz front and center, has "who-whom?" woven all through it.

Cul-De-Sac Hero said...

How come nobody says "Judeo-Christo-Mohametean"? Christ was put to death at the behest of the Hebrews, for crying out loud. Judaic scripture excoriates him.

Fine, the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion contains the seeds of vegetarianism. My church had a bible with the new and old testament, although, I haven't been for over 2o years. I admit my ignorance of scripture, but, I'm only speaking in general terms. It's fine here because One's point is not that there was a concerted effort on behalf of all Jews or that Jewish religion's ultimate goal is to make everyone vegetarian. It's that the influence on general thought has led many people to a false belief in vegetarianism.

Jews have Kosher and Muslims have Halal, both ostensibly to prevent cruelty and the wrath of god. I get the whole dominion over animals granted to man thing in Christianity, but, that has been watered down for most people. Even still, the creation myth separates man from nature, his real creator. Not only does this myth endow man with magical properties, it creates the illusion that life on this planet is supposed to be nice.
I know that this isn't the main intention, but you spin these ideas around in the Gaia worshipping mainstream culture of a society as stable and happy as the US and you get, what I like to call, The Very Nice Planet Paradigm. This notion, I find, permeates everything. It's a basic belief that life is easy in nature. The Nobel Savage concept looms large and all indiginous tribes are thought to have lived in harmony with eachother. The gentler side of nature is emphasized and predators visciousness is downplayed or ignored. How many products are sold using the "All-Natural" nonsense label?
In this paradigm, humans are half in the good, natural world and half in the evil, unnatural world due to the invention of greed (original sin). It makes sense that we're supposed to eat only plants because that is more "in tune" with this perverted sense of nature. Liberal Atheists will tell you that their influenced by Hindus and Buddhism, but, these roots lie in the religions their parents taught them.

The Jehovah's Witness at my door told me that all animals will all live together in harmony on earth.

Olave d'Estienne said...

How come nobody says "Judeo-Christo-Mohametean"?

I know it was a rhetorical question, Svigor, but the umbrella term for all three is "Abrahamic Religions". I think there may be some other Abrahamic religions, though. Mandaeans revere John the Baptist and other Hebrew figures. Rastafarians may also count.

Anonymous said...

That article about Asians discusses Asian health, not the fact that Asians are stupendously thin, a point he completely fails to discuss.

Low carbers claim that carb consumption is driving obesity - for such a claim to ignore the existence of Asia is stupendously intellectually irresponsible.

On the link provided earlier, it is shown that even in America, when people were thin they did NOT eat less carbs and more meat proportinately than they do now, so even THAT is a myth.

LOL, just another religion, for real.

Anonymous said...

The article is actually a classic low carber bait and switch - the title is about why Asians are thin, but the article discusses why Asians are healthy, not thin.

This tactic is much cherished in the low carb religion - when I began presenting evidence that carbs have nothing to do with weight gain when I begin to doubt low carb, I was often met with goal shifting - suddenly the point became that low carb is healthy, not that it is about being thin.

THE major claim of the low carbers is about being thin. Deal with it.

Aaron B. said...

To some extent, the arguments about low-carb seem to be shifting because they are shifting. It's still a developing area of inquiry, and there aren't many people who still think a carb is a carb is a carb and carbs alone make you fat. I think most people in the low-carb camp, and certainly in the paleo camp, would say that carbs make you fat after other factors make them fattening for you. Far too many people eat the same way all their lives, then suddenly, maybe at 20, or at 25, or at 35, they start to balloon up. No, they didn't get lazy or become gluttons. No, they didn't switch from salads to bacon cheeseburgers. Something happened that changed their metabolism.

What happened is still an open question, and is hotly debated on paleo/low-carb forums. Some candidates are, in no particular order: stress, genetics, epigenetics, fructose, refined carbs (as opposed to carbs in general), excess omega-6 fatty acids, gluten and other food intolerances, anti-nutrients, "food reward" (loosely defined as the intensity of the eating experience), and more, or some combination thereof. So it's hardly surprising if you don't get a consistent argument from low-carbers. We don't know exactly why people get fat. But unlike the mainstream, we're willing to admit we don't know everything, instead of repeating the calories/exercise mantra, which is just another way of accusing millions of people of being too lazy and gluttonous to change something that's making their lives hell and killing them.

And no, food didn't suddenly become vastly cheaper or more available 50 years ago, and people didn't suddenly stop exercising. Yes, many men got more exercise when there were more farms and factories, and women got more exercise when they had to haul water into the house. But that goes back a lot farther than the upswing in obesity and related diseases. If anything, exercise has increased along with metabolic disease, thanks to the growth of jogging and gyms. My grandparents would have thought you were nuts if you suggested they go for a run 50 years ago. They worked as much as they had to (mostly high-intensity work like lifting things and low-intensity like walking, by the way; very little "aerobic" exercise), and took it easy as much as possible otherwise.

The great service Taubes did was to definitively shred the eating/exercise hypothesis. In its place, he offered a hypothesis that simply eating too many carbs could be the culprit, by pushing insulin up to chronically high levels. As people explore that, we're finding that it's probably not that simple, since societies that eat a lot of natural starches like rice or sweet potatoes and no modern foods, and who live a more paleo lifestyle, don't seem to get fat or have metabolic disease. So something else works with the carbs, or gives us the propensity toward obesity in the first place, and then the more-insulin->store-fat->hunger->eat-more-carbs->more-insulin->store-more-fat spiral gets started. So Taubes wasn't the last word, but he was a critical one in moving the knowledge forward. (That's kinda what "hypothesis" means: a good one doesn't settle the argument; it kicks it off in the right direction.)

Anonymous said...

http://180degreehealth.com/2012/01/paleo-diet-myth-testimonials

Anonymous said...

Aaron B, so if we can now admit that carbs are not the culprit, instead of putting a band-aid on the low carb theory and saying carb plus something else we dont yet know is the culprit - which seems more like an attempt to preserve carbs as the culprit at least on some level despite the fact that no evidence supports the idea that carbs play ANY role at all costs than an attempt to come up with a good theory - why not begin looking elsewhere?

Its incredible to me how everyone wants to simply overcomplicate things. Its an inborn human need. Maybe things are not so complicated? My theory is simply this. Eating is a pleasure. Eating less is a sacrifice. You have to feel it is worth it. To feel it is worth it, being thin has to be an ideal for you. In order for being thin to be an ideal for you, looking good has to be an ideal for you. If you live in a society where being thin and looking good are not that big of a deal, you will be less likely to make the sacrifice of eating less.


In America, we had a cultural revolution in the 60s which among other things told us that looking good and its associated aspects - like dressing well - were not that important. More, we had strong cultural currents telling us that caring about how we look is morally wrong, because it is elitist and superficial.

Just at the moment when our culture began to tell us that looking good was not important, we began to dress poorly and grow fat.

Coincidence? I

Now, the countries that are thin all have one thing in common; they are elitist. The masses take their cue from the upper classes, unlike in America. Take Japan. In Japan, people take an incredible concern in their physical appearance. Take Thailand; it is the same thing there. Take France; also an elitist society with an historic concern with looking good. Is it any coincidence that people are thin in these countries?

Now take America. In which cities are people thin? In the most elitist cities where looking good is considered a value, like NYC, Miami, LA, etc.

Its all very simple. We dont have to search for these incredibly complex and mysterious explanations. The problem with searching for these complex solutions is that they make it harder for us to accept the simple truth about what needs to be done; to eat less. For me personally, as long as I indulged my penchant for avoiding reality, I was fat, fat on low carb, fat on paleo, you name it. Only when I confronted the stark simplicity of the fact that the human body needs incredibly little fuel to live and that I simply had to eat less, did I lose weight, and keep it off.

When I look at your picture, Aaron B, you are clearly overweight, so logic tells me that your approach to fat loss is clearly not the right one. It is no coincidence that you are immeresed in low carb and plaeo - I was fat too when I bought into that stuff. It is because it delays the day when you simply have to face the unwelcome truth that you have to eat less.

Taubes has done us all a terrible disservice with focusing the spotlight on what is essentially a distraction from what needs to be done. Low carb has nothing to do with obesity, and the more time we waste on this nonsense the further we will be from coming to terms with the truth.

Audacious Epigone said...

According to the GSS, only 1 in 25 Jews hunt (or have a spouse who does), compared to 1 in 5 non-Jews.

Olave d'Estienne said...

Please at least comment on all the sources that claim Hitler ate meat or give up the assertion that he was a vegetarian.

I honestly can't tell if people are joking any more. Yes, it's very clever to idly, flatfootedly assert that he was a vegetarian, but only because the definition of "clever" is as inverted as everything else.

Olave d'Estienne said...

As to assigning credit/blame for romantic back-to-nature ideals....

I know little of the direct connection between National Socialism and romantic naturism. (Once I read Table Talk and/or Mein Kampf, I suppose I will.) I blame Rousseau for a lot of the latter, and some say he is responsible for a lot of the latter. A lot of hippy thought can be traced to Rousseau. And of course some directly link National Socialism and hippy thought.

As to National Socialism, per se, it seems more syncretic than anything else. Marxian, anti-Bolshevik. Originating in Catholic areas, supported most heavily in Protestant areas, flavored everywhere with subtle paganism. Trending from tacit Zionism to exterminationism. Environmentalist and enamored of coal-burning factories. Disdainful of Austrian-style social Christianity, which was aligned with Italian fascism, which was later aligned with National Socialism.

They could just as easily have decorated NS with a neon sign saying, "Summarize this movement at your peril--if you're trying to be honest and historically accurate. But if you're trying to smear a political opponent--summarize away! There's hay to be made here!"

Me, I'd rather just praise and condemn people than try to link them to each other. When hippies save redwoods, that is a good thing. When hippies create wide-scale, unconscious guilt to try to manipulate people into acting like upper-caste Hindus, that is a bad thing.

On the whole, hippies and vegetarians don't bother me more than ordinary Americans because they don't seem any more anti-white, anti-virtue, or anti-civilization than the next guy. I would starve in a week on a vegetarian diet, but some people say it is crucial to their health. It's a more plausible idea of health than homeopathy, at least.

It seems like the stereotypical stand-up-comic stance of the last decade or so is the angry, ranting older guy who talks about how he hates vegetarianism for being fascist ... and how he hates white people for being fascist. That's a subjective impression, of course, and a lot of those guys were local people I met during the brief period in which I would pay to see live comedy (for some reason).

Daybreaker said...

For the benefit of those with reading difficulties....

When I said: "It's the Fuhrer's fault. His influence is wide and deep. ;)"

That semicolon and right parenthesis mark are used together on the Internet as a wink. That means, I wanted people to know I was just kidding.

And re: OneSTDV, I have not "upbraided him on some "racist", "anti-semitic" implied accusation". I think it's a good thing to raise questions that are not normally raised, but that might have interesting and empirically ascertainable answers. That's one of the best things that blogs do.

I'm just not convinced by the evidence I've seen so far on this issue.

Anonymous said...

"Once I read Table Talk and/or Mein Kampf..."

You might finally learn something.

Olave d'Estienne said...

Daybreaker, I wasn't directing my "Hitler" comments at you, but at folks in a couple of threads saying "Hitler was a vegetarian" (including Razib!) (I'm not sure if that is what you thought.)

Daybreaker said...

OK, Olave d'Estienne. No problem.

And, I don't know if Hitler was a vegetarian.

Doug1 said...

To Dana’s a, b, c and d above, which I agree with and thing explains a lot of the phenomena, I’d like to add an e.

e) With respect to any destructive idea-based nonsense going around at the time that particularly shames and limits their principal competitors in the US and the potentially powerful majority that they fear just turn on them in the fashion of Hitler’s brownshirts (i.e. non Jewish whites, particularly conservative ones), Jews will show great enthusiasm in leading and pushing that nonsense. Hence Jews have been at the forefront of making any hint of racism the greatest moral failing possible, and of making what’s considered racist expand ever wider, so that noticing any differences on average that aren’t beneficial to blacks is already over the line. Similarly with immigration restrictionism, which gets condemned as racist all the time in the media, esp. by the Jewish left. Jews tend to like to rub whites faces in the evils of slavery and Jim Crow, yes for general leftist political reasons but also because very few of the slaveholders were Jewish or enacters or enforcers of Jim Crow. Jews were largely innocent of those things and everyone pretty much knows that, so shame away.