Saturday Audience Participation
There's some controversy over whether higher intelligence and depression correspond. From reading the "intellectual" sphere, generally defined as people who engage in self-analysis, one would surely conclude that such a correlation exists. Bloggers like Robert Lindsay write about their depression and/or OCD on a regular basis and it always appears that their ability to provide insight into the problem exacerbates it. However, Wikipedia claims that no such correspondence exists and then mentions something I was thinking before reading the Wiki article:
With the exception of creatively gifted adolescents who are talented in writing or the visual arts, studies do not confirm that gifted individuals manifest significantly higher or lower rates or severity of depression than those for the general population...Also, no research points to suicide rates being higher in gifted adolescents than other adolescents.So smart people may not suffer more from regular "cloudy skies" depression, but they do suffer from thinking too damn much about the big questions of life. For me personally, there's nothing more simultaneously uplifting and depressing than thinking about the relative scale of humanity in the context of our universe. After awhile though I just couldn't handle the depressing side, so that's why I started a culture/politics blog rather than a science/religion blog; the former at least gives me some semblance of importance in a world where none of us really truly matter (besides perhaps historically evil people, ironically enough). In general, smart people just think too much and it weighs on one's emotions.
However, a number of people have noted a higher incidence of existential depression, which is depression due to seemingly highly abstract concerns such as the finality of death, the ultimate unimportance of individual people, and the meaning (or lack thereof) of life. Gifted individuals are also more likely to feel existential anxiety.
But depression is also one of these 'fad' diseases, buttressed by Big Pharma, lazy psychiatrists, and claimed by every Chicken Little SWPL woman getting over a breakup or not landing that PR dream job. Same with other mental ailments too, the number of which has increased beyond reason. Plus, depression is just such an odd disease - it has no objective test or physical manifestation. I believe it exists, but it's still very hard to define.
Today's questions: Are smart people more depressed? If so, is it because they 'think' instead of 'live'? Can cogitation on the "big questions", especially if the answers lead to materialism, cause depression? Have you suffered from depression and/or anxiety? When, why, what? And how did/do you deal with it? What exactly does depression feel like? Do some people self-diagnosis depression when it's not warranted?
50 comments:
Whether or not I'm depressed, I won't discuss, but I don't write about me suffering from depression very much. There have been only a few posts. I do suffer from SAD or winter depression to be honest.
I write about OCD a lot, but not usually about me suffering from it. It is true that I have it. I would not say that my ability to provide insight into OCD makes it worse. Insight is absolutely essentially in all mental illness, personality disorders and for mental health in general for both the healthy and unhealthy. Without insight, you have nothing, and you are hopeless.
More properly, I do therapy online with a lot of OCD sufferers, and that's actually what I write about, or else just describe posts about various aspects of OCD. It's true I know the illness extremely well, but I keep my personal struggles pretty much out of my posts, which are more or less clinical and descriptive in nature.
I can say for sure that OCD sufferers tend to have higher IQ's than your average person. And in doing therapy with them, indeed, many are quite intelligent. Brain scan studies have found that OCD sufferers actually have TOO MUCH brain tissue, which goes along with the nature of the illness: our whole problem is that we think too much!
Careful studies have shown that the high IQ basket case is a myth. Studies of very high IQ types have found that in general, as IQ rises, so does mental health. Why this is is not known.
Most mental illnesses have pretty clear patterns in acute cases. For example, a classic symptom of severe depression is an ongoing lack of interest in things which you normally find interesting. Major disruptions to sleep cycles would be another big indicator.
The real controversy is over the midler cases. For example, I don't really see how the medical community can call "dysthymia" (mild, chronic depression) an actual disorder since many people have a negative dispostion but otherwise function well.
I agree with R Lindsay about OCD. Most sufferers tend to be relatively smart, organised people.
People with certain temperaments seem to be more prone to particular disorders.
Orderly, organised people tend to be more prone to OCD, creative people are more prone to manic depression or ADD, dare-devils and entrepreneurs are more prone to ADHD etc.
I once was depressed once for almost a whole year. It was about a decade ago. I was lying around, collecting unemployment, and deluding myself into believing I was writing a book. I thought I was so smart. (I was an idiot.)
Right now I'm kind of depressed that silver just shot up 2 1/2 bucks before I had the chance to buy any.
Sayings always have a basis.
So, One, have you ever heard about "Ignorance Is Bliss"?
Out of personal experience and decades of contacts with others, I can definitely confirm that there is a high correlation between happiness and stupidity.
BTW: I don't believe that "depression" is really a mental disorder. As documented by common sense and recent studies, low serotonin levels are a consequence of a shitty life, not what causes a shitty life.
It's pretty normal to be depressed if you're still a virgin at 30 years old, or if you're plagued by a major physical handicap, for example. The contrary would be strange.
In France, they have another -- very popular -- saying: "Imbecile heureux" (literal translation: Happy Retard).
And in French culture, "idiots du village" (village idiots) are typically represented as smiling and happy when everybody around them has a grim face.
I'm reminded of the Simpson episode where Marge gets into bodybuilding after a mugging.
Finally able to leave the basement she runs past Grandpa Simpson yelling;"I'm not afraid!"
"Then you're not paying enough attention", he replies.
I'm not depressed, but maybe I'm not paying enough attention.
Sure, high Q people can get themselvs depressed by worrying about whether life is actually meaningful or similar.
But also nerdy types tend not to exercise as much as others; it doesn't fit their self-image. Such a lifestyle is conducive to depression.
Eg, a friend of mine (IQ of about 140) had a long-term, mild depression. His brother recently tackled him about this, and he's now started exercising. And he admits - sheepishly - that he actually feels better.
I don't believe the high IQ=depression myth.
I think it's the converse.
I think the smarter achieve more in school and college and that this suffices to make them happy. E.g. getting high grades in math makes them feel accomplished.
When you're smarter, everything comes easily to you.
And this makes you happier in life and I think it's much more rewarding experience when you can study high level subject matter easily.
"In a world where none of us really truly matter."
If you believe that to be true, and you believe in determinism, then yes, the world is a depressing place. I think that statement is the basis for the entire materialist worldview.
But it's incorrect in my opinion. If you look into the nature of consciousness and where it exists at the intersection of science and religion, it becomes apparent there is a tremendous mystery of life and humanity exists at the center of it.
So smart people may not suffer more from regular "cloudy skies" depression, but they do suffer from thinking too damn much about the big questions of life.
No they don't. They're depressed for other reasons and want "rational" reasons for their emotions. This is so they can pretend to be much deeper than they are by blaming the meaninglessness of the universe for what they already feel. A nerd might be sitting there and thinking about how it's all meaningless in the end, but if a pretty girl comes in, tells him she's in love and sits on his lap, all those deep thoughts fly away.
As far as your anti-drug jihad, it looks like the French agree with you. And with predictable, depressing results.
There are various forms of depression; major, minor (short), dysthemia and bipolar-caused. I suspect dysthemia to be prevalent among smarter and older people; it is a mild moody condition that makes people irritable and causes insomnia. It often feeds on itself.
For example, fatalist HBD reductionism often sounds pretty dysthemic. This does not mean the analysis is wrong, but the fatalism gives way to a sort of hopelessness and joylessness that could lead to dysthemia. Other forms of depression are probably more common. There are dumb and smart people who get sad when the leaves start falling in autumn.
Maybe Bruce Charlton could give his two cents. He's a HBD aware and psychiatrist.
-- Maciano
For example, I don't really see how the medical community can call "dysthymia" (mild, chronic depression) an actual disorder since many people have a negative dispostion but otherwise function well.
I think psychiatrists and psychologists probably did so because people came to them wanting help, who fit a particular definition. A definition needs a word and so they produced the word "dysthymia".
If you think about suicide every day, several times, for say ten or twenty years you could be fairly described as having a problem and needing help. You could also be function well during this period. This is not to say that any help is possible, either in the future or in the present. I wouldn't know, myself.
Ultimately, the only diagnosis that matters is self-diagnosis. (That probably isn't true with something like schizophrenia, but it is for the vague conditions.) Four different [people with the usual university degrees] will give four different diagnoses. One thing they never say is, "Oh, sorry, I can tell you're unhappy, but I don't think me or medical science has advanced far enough for me to help you, so you're better off saving your copay and taking your dog for an extra-long walk."
I don't think smart folks are more likely to be depressed. They are just more likely to be able to describe it and express their thoughts about their predicament.
I don't believe in "depression" anymore and I was a former sufferer. I used to see a psychiatrist and one day I just quit. Am I unhappy anymore, yes, probably at the same frequency. I believe "depression" is just a response to circumstances. I believe lower IQs are able to forget their problems more easily, but I also believe they are able to be conned into believing that some drug or something the therapist did "cured" them. Until circumstances change, nothing has changed.
Do I have OCD? Yes, and I hoard. I don't throw stuff out and this is a problem as I have lived in the same place for over 12 years (I used to move regularly, I had "wanderlust"). I believe the hoarding has something to do with being able to see future value in an item..... all I need to do to fix my inexpensive broken DVD player is replace a $0.50 resistor .... and why would I want to buy another DVD player when I rarely watch movies in that manner. So the DVD player is in my closet, along with a 1950s Rolodex (so cool), tons of books (okay, maybe just one ton), a lamp I saw in an alley that I believe looks circa mid 1800s, a print I found in a tube in Midway Airport parking lot in 2000 (figure it has to be worth something based on being in a plastic tube and rolled in foam ..... just can't read the signature of the artist to price. Note: I initially meant to find the owner but was too busy and it was months later before I even thought about it again), .... I could go on, but I really need to clean out my clothes closet and get rid of my fat clothes as I haven’t weighed that much in two years.
OCD I believe is an ability to actively remember a past action and the experience that resulted; or the ability to see a possible outcome and actively avoid. I don't touch door handles. I avoid certain food additives. I am very OCD about ear hair. There should only be so many people in an elevator based on size. If a negro walks through traffic straight at you, find any way to avoid interaction. etc. Some OCD I admit is ridiculous, I knew I really didn't serve any better if I drew a cross on a clay court then bounced the ball three times. Touching an alarm service sticker in the building stair well isn't going to keep my apartment safer than it is – but it gives me peace of mind ....
In my personal experience as a depressed nerd not even having several cute women competing for my love fundamentally changed my worldview. I can't deny it helped take my mind off of things, but the sadness so far never really goes away. "Love" is just another drug, another set of chemical reactions in the brain differing from a weed or cocaine high in degree but not in kind. Maybe I just haven't found the right girls yet.
Life under the frankfurt school is depressing by design. There has been a mass scale deliberate campaign to destroy our souls, going on for almost a hundred years now. The elite hate us and they want us to suffer for all our alleged sins, before dying out entirely.
My interpretation of that Wiki article is that the rates probably are the same between the gifted/non-gifted (excluding those creative wierdos :), but the types/symptoms of depression are differently distributed. If this is correct, then this would suggest a common cause of depression (unless conveniently whatever makes intelligent people less depressed exactly cancels out the things that make them more depressed).
I've read tons of musician/entertainer biographies, and there is a very strong theme of serious depression in the highest achievers. People like Elvis, Frank Sinatra, Bob Dylan, George Jones, Martin Scorsese and others have either tried to kill themselves or had extensive, major depressive episodes. (Not sure about Bono, but I'm going to guess he sleeps pretty well at night). I've come to believe, with singers especially, that despair is partly the reason these people are able to connect so powerfully with listeners.
If smart people are more depressed -- about which I have no opinion -- it might be because they are more aware. If, for example, you are actually aware of what the ruling class is up to, with it's anti-male, anti-white, anti-middle class quasi-genocidal assault on traditional America, then yeah, you might be depressed about things. Especially because you feel utterly powerless to do anything about it, other than rage on websites.
If your level of awareness stops at who won American Idol or the latest baby bump pictures of some moron actress, then you are left with only your own personal nonsense to depress you. Personal nonsense I suspect we all share equally.
There is another spin which is being "aware" of things that aren't true, like global warming. I suppose you could be depressed through a force-fed Lefty view of the world, which you then see as heading to a warming catastrophe, a world in which women are relentlessly oppressed, gays are powerless, people of color face institutional discrimination, etc. That sort of world view could be pretty depressing also, despite it being entirely false.
Are smart people more depressed?
As others have said, ignorance is bliss. There is a genetic basis to mental illness but it also seems to me to be exacerbated by the general breakdown of Western society and religion. With an atomised culture of rampant individualism comes dissociation, of the individual, and hence, in the individual.
Much of our mental well being, it seems to me, comes from having a functioning and valued place within a larger group - usually kin and extension.
The rise of anxiety disorders therefore stem from the breakdown of our communities and their religious fundamental values and bondings. As another commenter said "Life under the frankfurt school is depressing by design."
In our culture, the more base and earthworm like one is the more content one will be with materialism, and find self value within this decadent and materialist culture.
Those who are not materialist and find value in transcendent qualities, conceptual qualities like say "honour", "duty", "perseverance", "dignity" etc will be more prone to mental illness, depending on their circumstances.
Usually it seems that mental illness strikes at times that one has fallen on hard times (financially, career, family say in divorce etc), associated with a loss of value or being valued, a sense of isolation and detachment from the broader community.
Mental illness to me is the description of those symptoms that arise from these circumstances. If one can make their way through the experience then one may come out with a deeper insight into our condition and have something of value to help others similarly struggling.
Exercise, diet and all those tangible things do help lessen the strain but essentially, recovery comes from finding value again, and a place within our surroundings that is valued, even if only by oneself.
If you're interested here is my own analysis of my then OCD - actually more "pure O":
http://m4monologue.wordpress.com/2011/02/19/blast-from-the-past/
One of the negative things about relaying personal such stories is that people then start to attribute what you do to the mental illness, and dismiss you on that basis. So, admitting these things is fraught with danger in that regard.
What exactly does depression feel like? Pure O is pure horror and you would want to kill yourself.
And how did/do you deal with it? Cognitive behavioural therapy
Do some people self-diagnosis depression when it's not warranted? Yes and it's not warranted. Labeling people is useful in order to deal with the problem. However, many times such labels are a way to dismiss broader problems, like the drugging of young boys is merely our hateful individualist society disabling challenges to it. Many a ruined life through false diagnosis. Society is "the indicated patient" (hope I've used that term correctly). It is this society that is diseased, but it passes off that blame or problem, transfers it, onto convenient scapegoats. In the case of Ritalin and the like, mass drugging of normal healthy young boys. It's a form of mental castration that leads to physical disablement.
Hmmm, anyway. There you go. No doubt some will say "Well, there you go. He's mad. Of course, that's why." Oh well, such is life.
"Maybe I just haven't found the right girls yet."
If you are looking for the right girl to make you happy, I think you are going to end up very unhappy.
@Pat
"Much of our mental well being, it seems to me, comes from having a functioning and valued place within a larger group - usually kin and extension."
This is especially true for women as we get older.
"Life under the frankfurt school is depressing by design. There has been a mass scale deliberate campaign to destroy our souls, going on for almost a hundred years now. The elite hate us and they want us to suffer for all our alleged sins, before dying out entirely."
QED
A fine example of HBD fatalism leading to dysthemia.
--Maciano
I suffer from some mild-moderate anxiety and obsessional OCD issues that I am dealing with through CBT and reading.
My theory is that there could be a higher variance in depression severity among intelligent people. On one hand, they are more likely to avoid drug issues, obesity, and unemployment. But once any depression kicks in (randomly, due to chemistry) and you add in creativity and misguided logic, a whole huge tangled web can be created.
I don't know what category this falls into, but does anyone ever suffer from extreme decision making paralysis? I've struggled with this over things as ridiculous as a protein bar, taking 20 minutes to read through all the prices and nutrition facts. Only within the last few years have I noticed this is problematic.
It occurs to me that "mental illness" and diagnosis or categorisation like that in the DSM is the manifestation of this society's religion.
In a materialist society all things are treated materially.
"Oh, you're not happy? Must be something wrong with you because everyone should be happy all the time. Here, I've diagnosed that you have xyz disorder. Let's work on that, dwell on it, and in the meantime here's a lifetime prescription of drugs to stop you thinking about it. You'll be comatose and able to live happily in this wonderful society once again, where nothing has value and everything a price."
I remember at the time remarking to one of the psychologists that they are the modern replacement of a priest. Which is what they are. Rather than confession, absolution, penance, prayer we have the holy book DSM where all are set right and justified.
There's a place for everyone in the DSM, its breadth is all encompassing and ever expanding. There is not a human experience that cannot be categorised and treated or, if there is, then it soon will be.
I hear people talk about their kids as if they were supposed to be the composite of a whole lot of variables that should constitute a whole of 100% happiness and perfect compliance.
"My boy/girl does this this this. She seems so unhappy and does xyz that frustrates and annoys me. I should take her to a doctor."
Feel like saying "You know what, perhaps you're just a vacuous, shelled out hollow of a person, with no substance. Have you considered that? That maybe you're the problem?
Maybe you could take a good long hard look at the pathetic nature of your existence and the valueless world you've handed to your child. You offer them no hope, no spiritual reward, no transcendant reward, you probably don't even believe in spirit or soul. You've reduced everything to the sum of its parts and treat everything as if it were merely there for your own amusement. Your child is unhappy because they have a piece of shit for a parent and live in a world created by the likes of you. Have you considered that, even for a second?
But, best be diplomatic about such things and nod in vague support.
The whole thing could be best summed as Goethe does:
The parts lie in the hollow of your hand,. You only lack the living link you banned.
Seconding what Robert points out, according to the GSS, less intelligent people are more likely than more intelligent people are to see life as devoid of meaning. When it comes to "cloudy skies" depression, intelligence doesn't seem to make much of a difference, though having higher intelligence tends to provide some resistance to it.
@ Pat:
Great comments. I especially like this part:
recovery comes from finding value again, and a place within our surroundings that is valued, even if only by oneself.
Also, I'm glad you mentioned Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - which is what I advise anyone with essentially any type of mental ailment to pursue. It actually works, unlike bullshit Big Pharma "happy pills".
"People like Elvis, Frank Sinatra, Bob Dylan, George Jones, Martin Scorsese and others have either tried to kill themselves or had extensive, major depressive episodes. (Not sure about Bono, but I'm going to guess he sleeps pretty well at night). I've come to believe, with singers especially, that despair is partly the reason these people are able to connect so powerfully with listeners."
Nah, it's the alcohol and the drugs...and the realization that all the celebrity and money in the world doesn't solve our deepest concerns, whatever they are individually.
At least the ordinary Jane and Joe can cling to "If I only won the lottery, I'd feel different."
Those with money can't say that.
I still believe that a society in which people create things with their hands (whether as a vocation or avocation) provides us with satisfaction.
What's "gifted" mean? To me, "gifted" people are those who understand how to build things or fix machinery. I can't do those things, and that's what depresses me. I wonder what the incidence of depression is among, say, mechanical engineers. My guess is that the people who came up with the term "gifted" are the same ones who are in favor of speech codes.
i have suffered death specific existential anxiety most of my life. it has not robbed me of my joy of living, i love just waking up and breathing, but it has completely stopped me from having a life that follows the normal expected course, ive done everything i can to assure a life of hobbies, reading and thinking with as few obligations as possible. i tend to think every "liminal" stage you pass through is one step closer to death, and have avoided them, save a late marriage
one reason ive self diagnosed as aspy is that i appear constitutionally incapable of experiencing a sustained negative affect, i have never been inexplicably blue, melancholic, nostalgic etc. its as if i have no "emotional memory", im always moving forward, i always wake up in reset mode, at worst i can experience a flatness of affect for brief periods. i respond negatively to immediate stimuli, like having a fight with someone i love, but if negative interactions cease for about 15 minutes it just goes away in. i am incapable of holding a grudge as well.
i know from talking to and observing other people this is not normal, but i think its a great boon
I suffered from OCD when I was a child. I had the checking behaviours and ritualistic behaviours. At one point I feared my heart would stop(and would check my heartbeat). It was infuriating. As I grew older I was able to overcome these behaviours through willpower and reasoning.
In adult life, after suffering loss, I have had extreme anxiety with panic attacks. (Where'd all the oxygen go?)Not fun. Thankfully only transient.
I've seen psychologists for episodes of panic attacks/anxiety which are triggered by what basically amounts to existential anxiety about death(for instance a sudden irrational awareness of my own breathing and/or heartbeat). I've never taken any of the drugs they attempted to give me though. The attacks are pretty transient, over the past three to four years I've only had about a few months in which my life was affected by them.
Now in my normal state I do have a general feeling of positive anxiety and pressure as well though. I fidget alot, I have grandiose and racing thoughts, and I get really "charged" by aggressive activities like sports or arguing or what have you. I also have bouts where I feel intensely creative, and I'll spend hours at a time painting or writing stories. However I still stay rational, functional and productive in spite of what basically amounts to extremely mild hypomania (self diagnosis here, haha). The only negative aspect of it is the fact that sometimes I overreact to slights from strangers (ie if someone cuts in front of me in line). I'll stay angry for long periods of time afterwards too, which is probably not very healthy. My blood pressure is pretty high for that of a young and thin woman.
I think people can keep their negative mental tendencies within check through self control and willpower. It's just a matter of indulgence. I don't even know if variations in human behavior even constitute mental illness either. Life is full of fluctuations, maybe people in the past were just too busy surviving to pay much attention to it all. I think intelligent and average people are equally prone to mental issues, they just may have different problems.
Regarding the Happy Retard here is a quote from Schopenhauer.
"The animals are much more content with mere existence than we are; the plants wholly so; and man is so ACCORDING TO HOW DULL AND INSENSITIVE HE IS"
"But it's incorrect in my opinion. If you look into the nature of consciousness and where it exists at the intersection of science and religion, it becomes apparent there is a tremendous mystery of life and humanity exists at the center of it."
Another quote from Schopenhauer:
"That human life must be some kind of mistake is sufficiently proved by the simple observation that man is a compound of needs which are hard to satisfy; that their satisfaction achieves nothing but a painless condition in which he is only given over to boredom;and that boredom is a direct proof that existence is in itself valueless, for boredom is nothing other than the sensation of the emptiness of existence."
"That spiritual pain is conditional upon knowledge goes without saying and it is easy to see that it will increase with the degree of knowledge."
Schopenhauer
"if i have no "emotional memory", im always moving forward, i always wake up in reset mode, at worst i can experience a flatness of affect for brief periods. i respond negatively to immediate stimuli, like having a fight with someone i love, but if negative interactions cease for about 15 minutes it just goes away in. i am incapable of holding a grudge as well. "
This is a great boon according to Schopenhauer. You can't sum yourself up which is lucky.
He says: "With the animal , present suffering, even if repeated countless times, remains what it was the first time; it cannot sum itself up. Hence the enviable composure and unconcern which characterizes the animal."
"Also, I'm glad you mentioned Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - which is what I advise anyone with essentially any type of mental ailment to pursue. It actually works, unlike bullshit Big Pharma "happy pills".
I have ocd, depression. I was discussing an issue with the psychiatrist and she said something is blocking you and that is causing my problem. This issue was not related to ocd. Did we explore what was blocking me? no. She just wrote out a prescription for prozac, which was useless for my problem. She didn't refer me for any therapy to discuss it with someone. Maybe I should try CBT.
Ruminations involving OCD are hell.
I have thought about the same thing all day, everyday for years. Then that will stop and I will obsess over something else.It is like you are constantly pushing the replay button.
I wonder if being alone with nobody to talk to can increase ocd symptoms.
She just wrote out a prescription for prozac, which was useless for my problem.
I have a family friend who was trained as a psychiatrist.
When I got into nutrition/health/Big Pharma stuff, I chatted with her a little bit.
She once candidly admitted to me that Prozac and the like do nothing for depression!!
A friend of mine (w/m, mid-40s, middle-class, accountant, financially secure) was feeling continuously angry (not depressed) after a soured business deal with a close family member. His primary care doc prescribed 150mg daily WellButrin. He claims no side effects, the anger subsided, and better sleep.
All through my late teens and all of my twenties I've had periods of manic-depression. Nothing near clinical bipolar or anything like that. I know a girl with a serious case of bipolar. During her episodes she loses much of her connection with reality and talks random nonsense. I had nothing close to that.
But there were occasions when I was overtaken with grandiose rushing thoughts and on two or so occasions I made very reckless decisions. Those periods would crash, and I'd wallow in long dark periods of hopelessness.
There was one time when I was doing solo hill sprints as a high school wrestler. It was evening, the sun was going down, and idiotic thoughts overwhelmed my brain, thinking life is hopeless.
At around 33, seven years ago, all if that ended. Stable mood ever since.
Anon with OCD: yes you should try CBT with a psychologist not a psychiatrist.
For ruminations the key is to not challenge your thoughts, do not assess them as they come, do not fight them.
But rather than say what you should not do, which immediately makes you think of the exact thing that haunts you - the very problem with ruminations - what you should do is: "accept the doubt".
That's it: accept them.
A saying that may help is: "I have thoughts, I am not my thoughts, I have sickness, I am not my sickness." The only problem with that saying though is that it may itself turn into a mental "compulsion" to go with the obsession. You know what I mean :-)
But, yes, do CBT mate. It works a treat and your troubles will soon be long gone.
This conversation reminds me of the opening scene from the great and hilarious "Three Men in a Boat," as filmed by the BBC in 1975, when they still had some shred of dignity left to them.
http://youtu.be/eyXQ1imxjLM
@Pat Hannagan
Thanks. I'll try it.
"f you think about suicide every day, several times, for say ten or twenty years you could be fairly described as having a problem and needing help. "
Sounds like me. I don't know how I function, but I do. I never miss a day of work.I wonder what my like could be like without that thinking. There is always something in the back of my mind. I don't know if religion played a roll in it. I was brought up with a very strict Catholic mother always talking about hell.
Maybe thinking is bad. There was a WWII movie about pilots and one of the pilots said I have been thinking and the other pilot yelled don't think. There might be something to that.
A couple of commenters have mentioned that IQ and depression are negatively correlated.
I haven't looked at the research, but I wonder how the IQ categories are broken down. If they use very rough categories as is often the case with GSS (e.g. using the vocab test to determine IQ), they might be missing something. Maybe the correlation breaks down at a certain point that isn't shown in the results. For example, maybe the top IQ category is 130+, and maybe depression is less common for that category as a whole. But it could be that people at the very top, e.g. 150+, are extremely prone to depression, but since there aren't that many of them in the population, their numbers are drowned out by the all the merely bright people, in, say, the 130-140 range.
Or I could be totally wrong.
There was a WWII movie about pilots and one of the pilots said I have been thinking and the other pilot yelled don't think. There might be something to that.
They've done brain-wave tests on archers and found that right before they shoot their arrows their brain activity abruptly (almost) stops.
Plus, this is well known in basketball (and sports in general) regarding free throw shooting. The more one thinks about something - the worse one performs.
I think most people get depressed because they have little of real value in their life. Sure they may have lots of high dollar stuff, but poor family ties, no sense of personal honor, no list of personal accomplishments that make them stick out from the crowd, no faith or a very weak faith. No sense of the grandness of their heritage and fore fathers. In short they are depressed because cultural l marxism has gone out of its way to devalue that which is valuable; and they have elevated that which is not. Folks feel the lack but don’t understand its cure. I think folks with higher IQ’s are more prone to fall for cultural marxist bullshit so maybe folks with low IQ’s are happier
And the term is over used. I had to do therapy bullshit in an attempt to get custody during my divorce. The therapist said I was suffering from depression, and the fact I still enjoyed work, training, cigars etc was a sign of me not dealing with it. Yea I was bummed about losing 70% of my wealth and time with my kids, but is that depression? Being down in the dumps seemed like a logical response to a real world event to me. I tend to think the logical approach to emotions are ignore them and get back to life, work, family, training, etc etc, but according to that lady it proved her point.
Concern and worry for the future also seem like a logical response to real world events.
OCD. In the past, extremely well organized and self regulated people were praised. The best military intell guys I know have the OCD. Maybe its a blessing that folks don’t channel correctly to me? I set up for a lift, shoot, or what have you the same way every time. Is it OCD or part of our mental preparation procedure? Getting into the zone so to speak.
The issues seem to be more driven by the need for someone to justify their job than any actual problems
Perhaps they are depressed because they know God doesn't exist and life is meaningless.
The shift in how we think about sadness mirrors the shift in how we think about economic pain. People used to distinguish ordinary sadness from depression, pointing out that the latter wasn't a response to misfortune. Only the latter required medication.
Then someone realized that if you expand the definition to include reactive sadness, you can prescribe more drugs. Thus reactive sadness was turned into two depression in both senses.
And with people treating frictional/temporary unemployment like permanent underclass, we have taken away the incentives to get out of unemployment and away from dependence on government. Thus we have turned temporary economic downturns into permanent poverty.
Inversion, reversion, perversion.
I think OCD can be channeled properly. I suffer from it myself and conclude it's a defense mechanism. Whenever I achieved something worthwhile it was due to being driven by an unpleasant memory repeating itself endlessly. It keeps up my motivation. If you can focus on certain things while ignoring silly crap OCD can be a useful cognitive ability.
In Psych101, the text-book said that that intelligence had a strong correlation with recovery from mental illness. I think it may be due to the point Silly girl brought up.
Having much experience with the mentally ill, I think that the most damaging idea to come along is the chemical explanation of depression. This dovetails into the idea of no-fault depression; the thought that depression is solely caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. This leads to the truly depressing thought that if the individual did nothing to cause the depression, then, the individual can do nothing to cure it. Take your pills and live life.
I don't mean to blame the depressed for their illness. I think environmental factors, that may or may not be out of the person's control, contribute to depression, however, the sufferer contributes with poor reaction. Genes, as usual, play a role, but, I believe anyone can overcome depresssion if they take the right attitude toward it. The notion that depression is solely caused by a chemical imbalance leads to the conclusion that the sufferer is powerless to do anything other than take drugs. It's been championed by big pharma, big science and the anti-Freud crowd (i.e. feminist psychology).
The occurrence of depression in gifted artists has been written about over hte centuries: I remember reading article decades ago; it was poetically linked to Saturn.
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