Saturday Audience Participation
At OneSTDV and other related sites, we've often discussed the phenomenon of extended male adolescence within the context of our cultural and political environment. In the latter post, we responded to Kay Hymowitz's excoriation of today's young man. We largely argued that men have not consciously sought out their spiritual and physical torpor; instead they have seen a generation of feminism and liberalism undermine their ability to "man up" via becoming financially independent and starting a family. Yet I suppose maybe something's actually going on.
One could deem this collective languidness a generation-wide "quarterlife" crisis. Everyone knows about the "midlife" crisis, commonly depicted as an empty-nester buying a red convertible (my dad bought a Harley). But in recent years, the concept of a "quarterlife" crisis has begun to plague 20-somethings with lots of college debt, little middle-class job prospects, and a general spiritual emptiness that cubicle work, Facebook, drunken debauchery, secularism, and general mediocrity can not cure. This generation appears to be in a crisis, a sort of stupor they experience without insight into how to escape. A decade ago, hidden underneath the mass-appeal of blood, fisticuffs, and violent anarchy, Fight Club touched upon this modern professional and social daze. We watched Ed Norton's character content to go through his days with unchallenging comfort until he literally gets punched in the face and starts living.
So what exactly has caused this "quarterlife" crisis? And are we even in one? Do we live in a time of unprecedented comfort that has enervated our survivalist instincts, a time of rampant materialism that has made status-seeking our only goal, a spiritual dark age with no greater good or collective purpose to go after? Some would say yes to all of that, as Frost over at Freedom Twenty-Five subtitled his blog "arts and letters in a quarterlife crisis". He's doing something about it though, moving to Thailand, writing a book, and becoming a polymath/ripped/sex machine.
But is the pursuit of status, the kind experienced by Ivy Leaguers, lawyers, and guys with massive guns any better - the individual successes fleeting and the struggle omnipresent? Or should we accept our mediocrity because it's just so damn easy. Maybe we lose something important, but we avoid the stresses so many of our ancestors would gladly do without. I guess in the quarterlife crisis, we ask these questions because we don't know the answers and we don't know how we're going to find them. We want the comfort of adolescence, but the spiritual fulfillment of adulthood, all the while constrained by a cultural and political milieu that has largely failed us.
Today's questions: Are you in a quarterlife crisis or did you once experience a quarterlife crisis? If you're now past it, how did you find your way out of the quarterlife crisis? Can you describe what exactly a quarterlife crisis is and why today's 20-somethings go through it? In general, what are the main problems causing this generation's collective quarterlife crisis? Is it spiritual, sexual, physical, and/or professional? How do we fix it? Is there a gender gap in the quarterlife crisis? Technological component? Should 20-somethings pursue the kind of route favored by Frost - the "be the best you can be at all costs" route or just settle for comfortable mediocrity without all the stress?
48 comments:
This generation needs a war to fight.
And no, mercenaries fighting cavemen and goatherds does not a war make.
Obviously this is just another byproduct of the brave new post-Western utopia that has been graciously social engineered for us. Empty hedonism or meaningless drudgery, pick your poison. I'm surprised you're even asking these questions. Surely you already know the answers.
I don't have a quarterlife crisis (at age 27), I just have general existential despair. My life is definitely entirely pointless and there's no way that'll ever change. I might join the Foreign Legion some time in the future. I just feel like I have to... do something. I'm not at all looking forward to spending the rest of my life playing video games, which I don't even play all that much anymore because they mostly bore me.
I am guessing this is referring to single guys. Guys who are 25 and married with kids are too busy securing their kids' futures to be despairing. They are busy playing with their kids and teaching them stuff, so life doesn't seem so pointless. Likewise, grandkids are a pretty good cure for the milder midlife crises some folks experience. I think this is probably harder on people who have trouble with transitions. If you tend to get in a pattern and stay with it, then it is hard to go to the next phase.
"And no, mercenaries fighting cavemen and goatherds does not a war make."
Problem is, that's what 'war' IS in the 21st-century; the only thing you left out are the drones and other A.I. 'warriors.'
I might dare say the Peace Corps could provide some character-building experience, but i'm sure there are political-indoctrination pittfalls dotting that path; maybe not, if one is old enough to put that aside and focus on the personal development such an experience can offer.
"I might dare say the Peace Corps could provide some character-building experience, but i'm sure there are political-indoctrination pittfalls dotting that path; maybe not, if one is old enough to put that aside and focus on the personal development such an experience can offer."
No, investing in your own kids will improve the world more than any PC work in the PC.
An external war will only aggravate matters because of the two factors of hostile PC media writing the narrative and the USA's crushing debt.
We're headed for a civil war anyway.
What would happen if they gave a war and nobody came? Then the war would come to you. It's coming.
No, investing in your own kids will improve the world more than any PC work in the PC.
Of course, but i was extrapolating from personal experience (no kids), and that's probably about the norm for most 'quarter-life'-aged kids (e.g., 25yrs.-old or so).
Those who do have kids at that age have their hands full and have precious little time for indulging existential angst.
I think this is all caused by the loss of the guidance of tradition and rites of passage to signify the transition from childhood to adulthood. The lines of childhood and adulthood are blurred by "college"- the period in middle-class American life where you get all the rights of adulthood with none of the responsibility.
Rather than trading the role of child, with its attendant rights and responsibilities, for the role of adult, we now have a two-phase transition: first, by going to "college" you gain all the rights of an adult without losing the responsibility. Then, after you graduate, at some point you have to take on the responsibility of being an adult without actually gaining any new rights. This is especially true if you're now getting crushed by debt you incurred during "college": you already took all the benefit, and now you just have to pay for it.
This separation of rights and responsibilities causes people to view adulthood as a loss rather than as a tradeoff.
Then, after you graduate, at some point you have to take on the responsibility of being an adult without actually gaining any new rights. This is especially true if you're now getting crushed by debt you incurred during "college": you already took all the benefit, and now you just have to pay for it.
This separation of rights and responsibilities causes people to view adulthood as a loss rather than as a tradeoff.
That's a very good way of phrasing it. In other words, why not postpone for as long as possible the second transition, as it has no real tangible benefits, but only increased costs in terms of responsibilities.
The traditional carrot was being able to earn nice coin, which tends to offset the onset of unwelcome responsibility. But many folks seem to be unable to do that, likely through a combination of poor choices and poor opportunities.
When I went through this life period about twenty years ago, it still sucked, no question. But at least I was making decent coin at the time.
At OneSTDV and other related sites, we've often discussed the phenomenon of extended male adolescence
That's a poor way of framing the question. Women are at least as prone to this extended adolescence thing as are men, and possibly more so.
"That's a poor way of framing the question. Women are at least as prone to this extended adolescence thing as are men, and possibly more so."
Who says most women ever really grow up? Not me, anyways.
People confuse people doing what they need to do to get by (like working a normal job dutifully) with being grown-up. That's not the case. The vast majority of women are perpetually child-like by design.
Yes, I "went there," "girlfriends."
"I am guessing this is referring to single guys. Guys who are 25 and married with kids are too busy securing their kids' futures to be despairing. They are busy playing with their kids and teaching them stuff, so life doesn't seem so pointless."
+1. This is also the remedy for that whole "My job has no meaning!" crisis. When your job supports a wife and kids, it has meaning even if it's cleaning toilets.
In my time, college or trades of some kind was the transitional period of child to adult. In HS, well all wanted out and out of the house. Of course we all had jobs from 16 on in the summer and some kids part time during school. The idea of living at home after age 19 or 20 made you the butt of jokes and innuendo. We also worked while in college--especially those whose parents werent paying the bill entirely. The Protestant Work Ethic thing was universal. Kids whose fathers owned businesses worked there, others did the jobs you see illegals doing now. That's how you transitioned. I do this with my own children. They are not allowed to sit around. They get a stipend, (i have no control over that) but while in school it's only enough to get by, therefore, they have to work in order to get the fun stuff. The only exception is sports.
Out early crisis was not about having to leave childhood behind, it was about reaching a certain point by age 30. This is what weighed upon our minds between 25 and 28. 30 was an age milestone and there were certain milestones involved in life that one had to cross before getting there. Career--with certain responsibilities, which meant you weren't a cog. A home, a nice car, a wife, and memberships in worthwhile organizations. These were all deemed necessary as points along the way toward success in both career and socially.
A home, a car and a wife by 30? Shit, I'm still working on getting a job. And it isn't going well.
This generation needs a war to fight
You can't be serious.
And no, mercenaries fighting cavemen and goatherds does not a war make.
So who do you want to fight? Russia? China?
This generation needs a war to fight
What about the current cold war of the increasingly polarized right and left in this country?
The vast majority of women are perpetually child-like by design.
You again! I believe you went by "AR-15 Fan" before.
You again! I believe you went by "AR-15 Fan" before.
That wasn't me, though I do agree with him.
If all you 'anonymouses' would just pick a handle, these comment sections will be immeasurably improved.
The vast majority of women are perpetually child-like by design.
Actually hard evidence for this was mounting when it became unfashionable to investigate such things. While men on average score a 4 on Kohlberg's moral development scale, women on average score 3. Also, the Millgram experiments tend to support this view as well. One could argue that women are now socialized differently and that were these experiments and studies conducted these days we would get different results, but no one is going to actually do that, because they aren't confident enough that women would do better now on average and they sure as hell don't want to document similar findings.
If all you 'anonymouses' would just pick a handle, these comment sections will be immeasurably improved.
Here, here! In my humble and entirely unasked-for opinion, that is the single biggest flaw with this blog. Avatars and handles can be entirely anonymous, yet they at least allow you to get some sort of cumulative perspective and nuance on who you're conversing with, which makes eventually makes for much more rewarding exchanges.
I'd bet that many to most of those posting 'Anonymous' are one-time, one-shot soothsayers just venting before slipping back into the ether.
"The vast majority of women are perpetually child-like by design."
I remember reading a psychoanalytic monograph that discussed human psychological maturation.
The author suggested that for females, giving birth and caring for an infant was an essential threshold to adult psychological functioning.
The experience of childbirth and the total dependence of her baby (ideally) forces a young women to give up many immature fantasies and sublimate her drives into effective adult behaviors.
I think there is something to be said for that. Simply making babies obviously doesn't turn girls into adults, but women who are effective mothers have always struck me as far more adult and mature than otherwise similar women of the same age.
Re the Anonymous commenting:
There's really nothing I can do about it. Getting rid of "Anonymous" would get rid of "Name/URL" too which I don't want.
So either I switch to Wordpress (not going to happen because I'm all set up here) or I get Discus. I do like how the Blogger comments look, but it seems this Anonymous thing is pretty annoying to everyone.
Super Cop-
First, sorry for the typos, but it's sometimes hard to post via an iPhone to these sites.
That's the problem with all immigration--it cuts out the young from entry level jobs so you can get the experience everyone wants. The unemployment levels were as high or higher when I was in HS and college than they are now--but we didn't have to compete with Africa and Mexico's teeming hordes of low level workers. If you cut your hair, wore clean clothes, you could find a job. Those summer jobs offset tuition costs for middle class kids and part time jobs during school helped pay for expenses. Whats more, wages, adjusting for inflation, were much higher than now because we didn't have to compete with those teeming hordes.
All in all, early work was a way of maturing. Plus, you got the money to move the hell out of mommy and daddy's house so you could get some action without parental approval. All of which led to career, marriage and children--which made your career path better because you were considered more responsible than a guy who was single and out chasing at night. Those items I listed were part of ten items achieved by age 30-35 that "all successful men share in common" up until about 6 or 7 years ago. I have no idea what they are now.
Silly Girl--
I score a 6 on Kohlberg--from age 32 on. Responsibility, integrity and honor are what Kohlberg criteria is all about. Leftism is the opposite of those.
Hard work is good for people--maybe too much computer time is the problem as well?
The more I think about it, the more I think this lack of maturity has at least something to do with not working from 15-16 on. Even John D. Rockefeller made his kids work for money--and they had to keep a ledger showing where every penny went. He wasn't doing it because he was cheap, he did it to teach his children the value of money. Middle Class baby boomers made the wrong decision in not making their kids work--but then most kids my children's age complain about how hard it is to find a job--and that's immigration's fault. Too damn many people chasing the same jobs. I have watched adults doing kid's work for a long time now, I find it disturbing to say the least.
I, for one, would stop commenting if the Anonymous option were removed.
Class baby boomers made the wrong decision in not making their kids work--but then most kids my children's age complain about how hard it is to find a job--and that's immigration's fault.
I believe both teenage and black male unemployment are at all-time highs. But of course this has nothing to do with immigrants taking "jobs Americans won't do."
I, for one, would stop commenting if the Anonymous option were removed.
And that's assuredly not something I want to happen (people not commenting if the 'Anonymous' option is removed).
But why don't you use the "Name/URL" instead? You can just type in random letters if you like.
I, for one, would stop commenting if the Anonymous option were removed.
What on Earth would be the problem with using some random name? Cant you see how annoying it is when there are multiple in a thread commenting under one handle?
I don't think this even exists. Life is likely to get a whole lot more violent, and poor, and the ennui you describe will be longingly looked back upon.
HOWEVER, this does touch upon delayed or no family formation. Basically, culture has redefined family as a couple of gay guys with some adopted kid, or a single mother. Husbands/fathers are disposable. Desirable women (in their twenties) play the cock carousel. Women ready to "settle" for a beta (which is about 80-90% of most men) are in their mid thirties, not very valuable.
Most of this is likely to collapse as the world economy is a house of cards built on US consumer consumption.
The flip side is of course women. Women in their twenties by and large are not settling down either. They're living "fabulous" lives running their own Sex and the City lifestyle in urban/professional settings, and spending massively. Indeed female consumption or consumer decisions skew advertising and most entertainment in the US heavily female. It is shocking to see the Dr. Pepper "Not for Women" ad on TV. The dominance towards the female consumer is that strong.
One might ask, what's wrong with women? They're not marrying and having kids. They have lots of men to choose from, including guys older and better providers, more along in their careers. Why aren't they marrying and having kids?
The issue is the economy. This nation does not "need" another war (if at all possible, every step short of it should be taken to avoid such things, including military action short of it). Wars are terribly destructive, and we don't need one. What we do need is to exploit our energy, close our borders, institute protectionism, and revive manufacturing, beating cheap Chinese labor with cheap American energy. A big oil/gas boom is the cure for what ails us. [Oil companies are GREAT to work for, just about the best.]
Holy shit it took long enough for someone to outright say that we don't need another war and that it would be straight up destructive/bad.
And it's Whiskey of all people. Well damn, just when I thought I had you figured out.
Cant you see how annoying it is when there are multiple in a thread commenting under one handle?
No, it makes for an interesting exercise in sytlistics. Now stop talking to yourself, please. Okay, I will.
*stylistics
"What we do need is to exploit our energy, close our borders, institute protectionism, and revive manufacturing, beating cheap Chinese labor with cheap American energy."
And you said we didn't need a war... lol!
I'll defend the principle of the Anonymous commenter.
The Anon can't so easily be ad hom attacked. Therefore, you either engage his argument, or ignore him.
Even a handle that is just as anonymous as Anonymous still has others arguing with the person, not the ideas.
And it's Whiskey of all people. Well damn, just when I thought I had you figured out.
Case in point.
Personally, I'm 28 and spent most of the twenties in an existential ennui. Although I've probably had a better career path then most of my peers its been haphazard, involved a lot of moving, and basically was dictated by things beyond my control. The work was boring and while I made some money it was not satisfying.
I have nothing to spend the money I make on, so there is no desire to advance further. I have had limited success with women and the ones I've been with were not marriage quality by a long shot. Though I want to raise a family I think there are serious odds I never will.
I am somewhat lucky in that I'm being offered a job I think might be interesting, but there are lots of negatives too. I won't know if its really fulfilling until I take it. But beyond making my 40 hours a week a little more meaningful I really don't know what to do with the rest of my time.
This weekend I drank, partied, hit on some interchangeable sluts, and next week I will repeat the process. Sometimes I hit, sometimes I don't. Nothing changes, and I don't really see a path for it to ever change.
I sometimes do more meaningful things with my time but I largely have to do them by myself, as my peers and hook ups are just not on the same page as me.
I, for one, would stop commenting if the Anonymous option were removed.
You can comment as "John Smith" and still be anonymous. Assuming your name is not actually John Smith ...
The Anon can't so easily be ad hom attacked. Therefore, you either engage his argument, or ignore him.
Bingo!
I have nothing to spend the money I make on, so there is no desire to advance further. I have had limited success with women and the ones I've been with were not marriage quality by a long shot. Though I want to raise a family I think there are serious odds I never will.
If you want a nice marriageable girl, consider dating younger women like 18-19.
A little off topic. I wonder if part of the economic aspect of the quarterlife crisis issue is not caused by the lack of good or interesting things to buy?
People tend to strive more when they want something and todays market seems fixated around peddling "e" crud much of which is disposable or can be had for free.
Even todays autos are either not affordable or dull as dishwater. No wonder Gen Y cares little for cars.
As a note on that, if you watch carefully, the cars are cool and manly men can/are into fixing/owning them meme is being pushed on TV shows, especially those with some male audience a lot.
I suspect this is do to lagging sales and the aforementioned disinterest among people who could afford them but don't want them or the debt .
At the risk of veering into Whiskey's Turf, its not going to work. Men watch little TV and an exposure or two on NCIS LA is not going to have much impact
So many of the cookie cutter goods offers so little again, a used or cheap model is either as good or sometimes better.
Why strive for that?
As for marriage and kids, to what end?
To perpetrate a society thats hates you?
Marriage in this society is too perilous and kids, well unless you are doing it to further a functional family or you race (both laudable choices), its cruel to bring people into the world at the best of times.
I suspect this is do to lagging sales and the aforementioned disinterest among people who could afford them but don't want them or the debt.
disinterest? really? Man, I was so into cars and driving when I was young, this is hard to fathom. Got any more on this topic?
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various [c]trials, 7 so that the [d]proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which [e]is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and [f]full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of [g]your souls."
- 1 Peter
It should also be noted that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is joy; in other words there is a solution out there to the quarterlife crisis, if folks would only embrace Christ. I should also note that for all the Game talk around here, there are plenty of Christian women who will respond favorably to "beta" men who want to settle down and have a family, despite the state of our economy. They don't buy into any of the toxic liberal cultural lies peddled by the MSM or Hollywood.
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various [c]trials, 7 so that the [d]proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which [e]is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and [f]full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of [g]your souls."
- 1 Peter
It should also be noted that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is joy; in other words there is a solution out there to the quarterlife crisis, if folks would only embrace Christ. I should also note that for all the Game talk around here, there are plenty of Christian women who will respond favorably to "beta" men who want to settle down and have a family, despite the state of our economy. They don't buy into any of the toxic liberal cultural lies peddled by the MSM or Hollywood.
Anon 12:34 here is an article on Kiplinger on Gen Y's lack of interest in cars.
I don't know how accurate this is but I do know quite a few Gen Y folks and the car does not seem to hold the same mystique as they did for previous generations.
http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/no-cars-for-generation-y.html
There is also the affordability issue which the article is full of beans on, a lot of the US populace is too poor to afford a nice new car and that includes much of Gen Y.
Also after this mess and student debt etc, I suspect that fewer people will want to borrow and that means fewer big ticket items of any stripe as well.
So few interesting small items other than computers, no affordable big ones well that means interesting times, if I am right anyway
At the risk of veering into Whiskey's Turf, its not going to work. Men watch little TV and an exposure or two on NCIS LA is not going to have much impact
Not according to this http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/american-video-habits-by-age-gender-and-ethnicity/
("Video" here includes television viewing.)
Marriage in this society is too perilous and kids, well unless you are doing it to further a functional family or you race (both laudable choices), its cruel to bring people into the world at the best of times.
If you believe that it's cruel to bring people into the world at the best of times, then I'd say you're most certainly suffering from some sort of existential crisis.
Personally, I think it's possible to remain upbeat about life while still acknowledging the issues, difficulties and challenges that lie ahead.
I think we'd all agree that moments of great beauty (including 'awe' and 'wonder') and love are possible in this world. One way (but not the only) to think of an optimist is someone whose inner, mental life is dominated by such thoughts and experiences (or memories) and who dedicates himself to the creation of more on them in the world. The contrasting way to think of a pessimist, in this sense, is someone whose mental life is dominated by awareness of problems, setbacks, potential disappointments and looming crises. (Maybe the most acute version is the 'hereditarian pessimist' [or racial pessimist] for whom everything is constantly declining and who sees no hope of arresting the decline.)
Both viewpoints are 'true.' But they emphasize different aspects of human existence. It probably annoys pessimistic people to hear it said, but I think it's clear which of these viewpoints affords a more consistently joyous experience of life. And when you consider that you only have one life to live (so we assume), then I think it behooves a person to turn his mind towards optimism to the greatest extent he is able. To do otherwise, in this view, is to suffer unnecessarily.
Silver
One--
Can't speak to where you live, but where I live and most places I travel, it is immigrants of one kind or another working at jobs that were the jobs of HS and college kids 35 years ago. These adults working these jobs--bus boys, wait staff, flipping burgers, etc. You only saw low end adults doing that during the breakfast and lunch shifts. Some high end restaurants where I lived made a point of hiring from certain HSs. But then property rights were lost and owners were made to hire people.
Of course there is a lot to be said for a lack of a work ethic now a days as well.
Matt-
My daughter tells me that they have had it driven into their heads (private schools, no less) that driving for the pure pleasure of it is not something her generation does because they had it pounded into their heads that this was bad for the environment--pure nonsense.
In my day, going for a joy ride was just that--a car load of friends, a tank of gas and the pure joy of the power of a V8 under foot. It represented freedom and the potential, any way, to go anywhere. Hence, the faster the car the better. I found all of this out from here when I told her to go take her convertible for a ride--a car that I lovingly restored for her with her help. She really just couldn't conceive of just calling a friend and going joy riding--until I made her.
5.6L of pure German V8 with all of it's throaty roar and timeless beauty--love at first site. Cars are like women, some are dogs and boring and some are sleek and sexy. But cars are always referred to as "she"--at least when sleek, sexy and fast.
Anon with no soul-
You need a life. Work and or a job, is very seldom a life. Life is what you love to do. Finding something you love to do is about having a soul and finding it. Hate to say it, but start by building a real stereo--not some junk from Best Buy, but I mean at least 10,000.00 worth of gear. Then buy some nice classical vinyl and actually listen to it--rock is fine too, but the classical will refine you.
Find a vintage car you can love, buy the manuals for it and restore it--no electronics, just pure old fashioned analog. Were talking something fast and sporty here. It will take you untold hours and monies to do it--while you listen to that beautiful stereo. Once it can be safely driven, drive it and watch, or rather sense, your whole world change and the people you meet just because you have "created" a thing of beauty. It's a good time to do this, those cars are cheap right now due to the economy. Having a truly unique car, so to speak, does make life shine a bit more.
Go to church once a month, just to see what happens.
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