In this vein comes an article from the Wall Street Journal entitled, "Where Have the Good Men Gone?". I've covered the basic problems above, as have others across the manosphere. I needn't repeat what they've said or the obvious notions often stated in the sexual realist blogosphere. Instead, I'll focus on one particular theme:
Guys talk about 'Star Wars' like it's not a movie made for people half their age; a guy's idea of a perfect night is a hang around the PlayStation with his bandmates, or a trip to Vegas with his college friends.... They are more like the kids we babysat than the dads who drove us home.So men aren't growing up. They obstinately reside in this adolescent, post-college purgatory of video games, booze, and general slothfulness. OK, let's continue:
Not so long ago, the average American man in his 20s had achieved most of the milestones of adulthood: a high-school diploma, financial independence, marriage and children. Today, most men in their 20s hang out in a novel sort of limbo, a hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. This “pre-adulthood” has much to recommend it, especially for the college-educated. But it’s time to state what has become obvious to legions of frustrated young women: It doesn’t bring out the best in men.According to this article, financial well-being and a steady residence as well as marriage define a grown man. Let's focus on the first two as these are a prerequisite for marriage, with the choosier sex increasingly turned off by a destitute loser who lives with his college fraternity brothers. Instead of reflexively blaming this generation of men for an organic listlessness, perhaps one should consider the societal forces imposed upon him.
So I think most people agree that a man must maintain financial independence, a stable job, and a stable living situation (e.g. not with one's parents) to project his worthiness as a potential mate, thereby satisfying the standards of today's "good man". Yet what has feminism wrought in this regard? How has feminism undermined his ability to do so, ironically creating a problem that feminists then grouse about incessantly?
First, he has to get a college degree at an increasingly higher cost. There's no getting around this and if he really wants to compete in the job marketplace, he probably needs to go to an elite school. Well that's about 200,000 dollars for four years, a hefty price tag that takes awhile to pay off. So he starts his post-college life already in a large amount of debt. Second, he enters into the mancession where 80% of laid of employees have been men. He can't find a job in government because they've spent too much money engineering an equal gender employment rate, supported by diversity offices, five secretaries when they only need one, and other imperative positions filled by women. So he's broke and he can't find a job - because of feminism and liberalism.
But this doesn't deter him; he buys frugally, spends little on superfluous luxury items, and saves up to get an apartment. Well it's a place to live, but more of a closet really. Barely two separate rooms in his apartment. And why is that exactly? Why can't this hard-working man find a permanent residence by age 30 - because he doesn't live in a two-income family. In previous generations, each family had one income from a man who actually did meaningful work for society. Now, with the market imposed upon by gender-PC forces, housing prices assume a family has two incomes since all women work now.
Yet he doesn't have a wife to pitch in nor does he have any women interested in someone with a less than stable situation. He's stuck in a rut, with little recourse besides waiting out the inevitable dissatisfaction Ms. Carrie Bradshaw experiences after age 30. Then, he'll be good enough despite his "failings", all of which brought upon him by the forces of feminism. Funny that feminists indirectly created the problem they now lament so often.
Update: Randomly came across this video today at HuffPo: "5 year-Old Won't Marry Until She has a Job"
43 comments:
In the "old days", pre 1970, African-Americans were kept in separate neighborhoods, and mestizos were few in number. So, a family with a single income earner could live in a modest home, but the neighborhood would be safe. Today, it takes two incomes to "buy safety".
Female Dominated Corporate Human Resource Depts Hiring Hot Guys But Not Hot Girls
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2...-employable/?hp
The full study available below:
http://www.ec.bgu.ac.il/monaster/ad...pers/1006_2.pdf
Abstract:
Job applicants in Europe increasingly embed a headshot of themselves in the top corner of their CVs. We sent 5312 CVs in pairs to 2656 advertised job openings. In each pair, one CV was without a picture while the second, otherwise almost identical CV contained a picture of either an attractive male/female or a plain-looking male/female. Employer callbacks to attractive men are significantly higher than to men with no picture and to plain-looking men, nearly doubling the latter group. Strikingly, attractive women do not enjoy the same beauty premium. In fact, women with no picture have a significantly higher rate of callbacks than attractive or plain-looking women. We explore a number of explanations and provide evidence that female jealousy of attractive women in the workplace is a primary reason for the punishment of attractive women.
Basically, they found that 96% of companies had Human Resources departments where it was a woman reviewing the job applications.
Results were:
Men- Attractive equals very good chance of callback, no pic equals moderate chance of call back, ugly equals straight in the bin,
Women- Attractive equals very low chance of call back, no pic equals moderate chance of callback, ugly equals good chance of call back.
Does it strike males that modern life isn't too easy on women either (especially geeky/nerdy types)? We have to cope with a barrage of media images detailing what the perfect female form should be, obsession with youth (God help you if you get so much as a wrinkle), weight hangups and the such. Try looking through the female jeans section at any clothes shop.
But I guess this is the HBD/Game sphere, where male 4's and 5's believe they have a God-given right to female 9's and 10's. Here's a tip: Find girls in your own league, instead of being disappointed when female 10's shoot you down.
Messed up the links, here they are:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/22/are-attractive-people-more-employable/?hp
http://www.ec.bgu.ac.il/monaster/admin/papers/1006_2.pdf
Gem, a classic female response of "no, me, look at my problems and not yours" combined with a bit of "not all women are like that"
That shit doesn't stick anymore dear, its the women who are complaining about not having good men. I'm very happy in pig heaven thank you very much.
Gem,
The irony is that, for all the grief caused in the female psyche by the imagery peddled by the fashion industry, it is straight women and homosexual men doing the peddling.
In other words, those standards are the same ones that the two most feminine gender roles in our culture created.
As for things not being easy on women, from my perspective, life for women has never been easier. If all you have to worry about in life is heroin-chic imagery, then women as a sex have truly arrived.
But I guess this is the HBD/Game sphere, where male 4's and 5's believe they have a God-given right to female 9's and 10's. Here's a tip: Find girls in your own league, instead of being disappointed when female 10's shoot you down.
1. Guys who are 4s and 5s (mid-betas, essentially) don't hit on 9s and 10s.
2. The problem is that "peer value" women -- female 5s -- are hooking up with male 7s-9s, because male 7s-9s will have sex with female 5s and 6s if they are putting it out. Not relationships mind you, but sex -- oh yes.
3. As a result of "2", the pool of peer sex value women is rather depleted because most of them either are hooking up with higher SMV men, or *have* hooked up with higher SMV men in the past, and therefore think they can do better than their male peers. In other words, the fact of sexual access to "hotter" men spoils many of the mid-rank women into thinking that their rank is higher than it is, and makes them much less interested in the men who are their actual peers in SMV.
The women who have it hard in today's market are the ones who don't want to have casual sex -- they're kind of shut out of the market for the kind of guys they probably find attractive. Oh well.
"Does it strike males that modern life isn't too easy on women either (especially geeky/nerdy types)? We have to cope with a barrage of media images detailing what the perfect female form should be, obsession with youth (God help you if you get so much as a wrinkle), weight hangups and the such."
"Have to"? Says who? Who pays attention to that crap? I sit and stare at the walls at the beauty parlor (no, I don't call it a "hair salon") rather than look through those horrid vulgar women's fashion magazines. You talk about having to cope with a "barrage" of images as though you're living under fire. Get real. If you didn't figure out early on the difference between fashion and style, then cultivate your own style, occasionally updating it with more fashionable items, you deserve to go through life single, with a horrible self-image, wearing a putrid pink Little Princess T-shirt.
"Try looking through the female jeans section at any clothes shop."
I still wear the same (normal) size jeans I wore in my 20's. I go to the store, find something in my size that's not too whorish-looking, buy it and forget it. That's all the "looking through" I can be bothered doing. Sounds to me like you've bought into that "barrage" of media images you're on the front lines valiantly trying to duck.
"But I guess this is the HBD/Game sphere, where male 4's and 5's believe they have a God-given right to female 9's and 10's. Here's a tip: Find girls in your own league, instead of being disappointed when female 10's shoot you down."
You're at OneSTDV's site, not Roissy's. That crap flies over there but here, the guys seem pretty realistic to me. In my age group (mid-50's), it's the single women I know who aim too high. I know one who's not in remission yet from her bout with cancer, has lots of credit card bills, is too depressed to leave her house many days but wouldn't consider an otherwise presentable man her online dating service matched her with because at 62, he's "too old". Another girlfriend, smart and accomplished but 200 lbs overweight can't understand why the guy she had an online relationship with married someone else.
Sure some men aim too high but that's hardly a gender-specific fault.
Whether or not you realize it, your unaccountably snooty attitude is part of what guys complain about at sites like these. And I don't blame them.
I am reposting a comment left by an anonymous commenter at whiskey's blog:
I guess the usual lament I read in the HBD blog o sphere reads something like this
"... I am a male beta 6. I see all the female 6s competing for the attention of the male alpha 9s. I am therefore unhappy and want society to be changed...."
whiskey, If 100 males in the HBD blog o sphere post this, I personally assume that those 100 males fall in to one of the three following categories
(a) males that want society changed so that somehow beta 6's can get attention from female 9's
(obviously that is silly. The beta 6s that post here will never get attention from female 9s no matter how socity is rearranged. These male posters are laughable and are hiding the truth of what they want)
(b) males that want society changed so that male beta 6's can have sex with female 6s without getting married (this is not quite so silly a thing for the beta 6s to want, but still pretty silly. if all the beta 6 males are offering is commitment free sex there is no logical reason for the female 6s to provide it when the female 6s would rather provide to the male alpha 9's. Putting it another way, if a female 6 has the chance to ride a male 6 or a male 9, it is only logical for the female 6 to ignore the male 6 and jump on the male 9. )
(c) male beta 6s that want society changed so that they can marry young female 6s BEFORE those female 6's ride the carousel. (obviously i think these male beta 6s are indeed reasonable in what they request and that we on this blog should try to offer them practical advice)
my point is that the males who post here who are in the (a) and (b) category are really quite silly and not worthy of consideration.
Males in the (c) category are very interesting to me. I think they can solve their problems by converting to mormonism or some other traditional group or culture within the US or abroard. Really there are many ways for them to solve their problem. I would like to hear more from the readers here of practical ways for the males in category (c) to solve their problems.
Beta males should listen to more rap. Most of the parties I've gone to with a lot of hooking up and sex had rap playing on the stereo.
Does rap cause hooking up, does rap make its listeners more masculine, or do masculine guys listen to rap?
Who knows.
All else equal, I'd assume a guy listening to macho music will act more alpha than a guy listening to Train.
OneStdv,
This is the "hidden white poverty" that Ive talked about elsewhere.
White guys, who dont want to go to prison, and (2) believe that civilization is necessary, end up enduring a new kind of poverty that is invisible to others:
Example: A white kid who has a high school diploma, no criminal record, gets a job at Radio Shack, or Verizon. He makes $9-an-hour, learns about the equipment, etc. Thats not enough money, so he delivers pizza a few nights per week, and brings in an extra hundred dollars per week pay, basically paying his car note/car insurance. This guy has not one, but two roomates. He works 60 hours a week, but really is having a hard time saving up much money because that three bedroom apartment in a declining Mexafying part of town with a few gang-tags showing up everywhere still costs $1100 a month. Even though he is sharing his life with two other men, one drunk all the time, he is still paying almost $400 a month just to have a roof over his head and $350 a-month-on a car note and car-insurance.
We give a single mother a free place to live, or give her a whole house if she can come up with a mere $300 (Sec 8 Voucher), we give her free food (stamps, WIC) and free health care for herself and the kids.
This single white guy, working 60 hours a week, doesn't get any of that. He's working his life away, barely has time to date, (and when he does, his lack of a home and nice car, his two roomates he needs to save money, and his lack of free time, rub women the wrong way). Lets say this single white guy has an IQ of merely 103 (U.S. average is now 97), whats he going to do? He's not going to be able to get through med school. He's not going to be able to get an engineering degree. He's not going to be able to write software.
I wish wealthier whites would see the plight of this very decent young man, and realize that future civilization will be strengthened if he can attract a Jane Whitebread and have two more law-abiding, polite, considerate white children, even if they are of only slightly above-average intelligence.
He is the "hardworking poverty" we dont see. Just because he doesn't live in a hovel, and he has a Ford Focus or Chevy Cobalt doesn't mean he's not "poor". He can't get ahead for the life of him, and he's probably about 27 or 28 years of age........getting nowhere fast. There are many like him. In the past a young man like this could make money in construction, one of the formerly plentiful factories, or on farms. Working a second job in the 1970's or 1980's meant seriously getting ahead, saving up a big downpayment for a hosue, and getting a jump on life. Now it means only slightly getting ahead, and some kids do it for half a decade or more, and for what? An ageing cougar when he is 35 of hopes of having merely one kid, hoping she doesnt divorce him. The government would like him to chuck it all and joint the military, but thats not the future for him in my opinion. I think he needs help.
Even if he does manage to get that programming certificate, he will go in front of a female-dominated HR department looking for a job, and he as a white male, is last on the list for anything.
Oekedulleke said...
"Gem, a classic female response of "no, me, look at my problems and not yours" combined with a bit of "not all women are like that"
That shit doesn't stick anymore dear, its the women who are complaining about not having good men. I'm very happy in pig heaven thank you very much."
+1
The last line needs to be repeated:
***I'm very happy in pig heaven thank you very much.***
@Anon 1246
That comment was gold.
Reminds me of the unemployment situation. How many of us are undermployed right now? This isnt even something that gets researched.
Also, the situation you describe applies to many college educated young men right now, too. Im encountering HR chicks who graduated from my college after I did, just a year and a half ago.
This makes game, charisma, and likability to women in general not just a matter of getting laid, but having a job. From where I stand the supposedly emerging "service economy" is a feminist dystopia.
12:46 anon please see my response to what I believe is your comment on yesterdays post. You are really onto something here, run with it. What could "wealthier whites" actually do to help?
Gem said...
"But I guess this is the HBD/Game sphere, where male 4's and 5's believe they have a God-given right to female 9's and 10's. Here's a tip: Find girls in your own league, instead of being disappointed when female 10's shoot you down."
Ladies and Gentlemen this is what is called a Troll post. It's when the person doesn't even believe their own statement. They are simplying trying to agitate like whacking a hornet's nest with a stick.
This is the true reason why Gem is upset.
A female 7s at age 20 will look like a 5s at age 35. However since men are not judeged by their looks a male 7s at age 20 is still a 7s at age 35...55...75...until he dies. Don't blame men for this, that's what mother nature has decided.
A female who snubs a male who is her equal in her youth will be in for a rude awakening 10 years later to find that the same male won't even give her a second look.
Feminists wanted to have it both ways. A late marriage which allows for a career and an impossible wish: they wanted men to always see women as being equally desireable regardless of her age.
Sorry folks when ideology collides with biological reality the results are always the same.
This is what Gem did not understand in her youth but she certainly understands it now in her advanced age. But she'll never admit to it because that would be an admission that men are right.
So her only hope is to make a snarky comment and hope that all the men here fall for the bait and get upset. oops but the plan failed. We can all see right through Gem as if she's paper thin. *grin*
Gem, if you have any honest desire to test the thesis of the post 1990white man's lowly condition, there is a very simple experiment you can conduct. Simply call 911 and report that a man has "harassed" you by speaking disrespectfully. As you doubtless know, the legal standard for conducting an I.D. stop is "reasonable suspicion of a crime." The cops will I.D. the man you've reported as disrespectful. In other words, it is now a crime for men to speak to women in a less than deferential manner. The irony, of course, is that there is so much criticism that the postmodern woman deserves. For example, H.R. types really don't do anything that could properly be called "work." Actually, there would be an intermediate stage in the scenario. Some NPR-listening male will intervene to rescue the woman. It could well be he who calls the cops. The cops will be kids who've been schooled in the elasticity of free speech.
I aspire to Alpha 4 maledom (ie, Gordon Ramsey).
Those are the dudes we need to heed, not some pansy-ass Justin Bieber lookalike.
My most recent post covers this. The problem for women is that by age 30+, most of them have ridden the sex/bed carousel, and have little value to most men their same age. Who will sleep with them but not marry them.
Sure, they can still get sex at age 35 with more than 50 lovers, but marriage? Unlikely. At least from a good quality (stable, reliable, and "sexy enough" to turn them on) man. So you have single motherhood, IVF, etc.
Society today is optimized towards providing the most women with access to dominant, sexy Alpha Men. Not forcing women to trade off sexy (only a few men will be sexy) for reliable.
YR -- count me in on the "family formation" camp because nothing ever did come out of single motherhood and unattached men. But relying on Mormonism alone is a fallacy. First, most people will not convert, and there are not going to be women converting either, so you'd just have the same problem (many men competing over a small group of women).
Secondly, women will actively fight any way to structure society so they must choose early between riding the carousel (and being unsuitable marriage material) and making the best possible choice early. They'll fight it tooth and nail.
BECAUSE society is optimized for as many average (6) women to have as much sex as possible with high quality (9) sexy men. The problem is social and IMHO won't change absent a widespread and lasting shock that makes physical protection a must (one Alpha cannot physically protect many women, sexy is not equal to able to protect).
BECAUSE society is optimized for as many average (6) women to have as much sex as possible with high quality (9) sexy men.
I don't believe it's fair to call this dynamic "society." It's nature.
And since gray dictates all forms of life, it might even be fair to say even 2 or 3 women might have more sex than 80% of men, and 1 women as much as 40% of them.
Eric Von Markowic tells us that
women have replication value and
men have survival value.
Replication value- her beauty and ability to have children, indicitive of even features and a good waist/hip ratio with supple breasts to make baby's milk.
Survival value- his ability to provide a home, defend her, negotiate civilization's inhabitants to secure the necessary resources for her and their offspring.
The state has stolen (via taxation, and public debts) men's survival value and has given it to women via public housing, HUD, Section 8, food stamp debit cards, medicaid, free schooling, free training for single moms, quotas and set-asides for women, publically funded women's shelters, etc.
Women, explicity single mothers, are "underwritten" by the government, who gets its money from intact families and men for the most part. It makes men an uneccessary accoutrement in women's lives. Women, any woman above a 4, can generally get sex. This affects the "meta-framing" of men in women's eyes in my opinion. Its hard to respect someone you have so much legal authority/advantages over, and for women respect equates with attraction (Kissnger--power=aphrodasiac)
YR,
What I meant yesterday was that whites could form some sort of private "Euro-American-Anti-Poverty-Organization" dedicated to helping other whites with privately funded scholarships to trade schools and semi-professions. Perhaps that could expand to university programs.
This is how I'd run it: I'd give em' and IQ test. I'd tell them how they did, and how their results correlate with the demands of various degrees and certifications. I'd offer to pay for perhaps 75 to 80% of their classes taken toward a degree. Its good that they have to pay a small portion themselves, so it will be truly worth something to them.
Funding would have to come from wealthy whites, but ordinary whites could join the group. Paying 10 or 20 dollars a month to such a group would be money well spent in my opinion.
The group's mission should simply be "helping whites escape poverty and helping whites be able to afford family formation".
Blacks have the Urban League and the NAACP. Hispanics have LaRaza. Muslims, Asians, Jews, and every other group has their own organizations. However Euro-whites have no boosterism/self-help group. I'd like to see one come into existence. Im just an average guy with a middle-class income, so Im not someone who could start such a thing. I wanted to get the idea out there on a few blogs, because there are some readers who might be able to get the ball rolling on such an idea.
However Euro-whites have no boosterism/self-help group. I'd like to see one come into existence.
Well, there is European Americans United, but joining them violates the Steel Rule of Reaction. (I considered joining, myself, and decided against.)
Unmarried Man -- Yes it is likely the state of nature. Which being nasty, brutish, and short, should be avoided no matter what. Consider most societies: poor, violent, tyrannical, ignorant, and destined to remain that way. Is that a model to follow?
Or the proven prosperity given by the nuclear family? And social promotion thereof? I'd say the latter. I'll admit women will fight tooth and nail to have "sexy now" at the expense of society being damned, and with it their kids. But all that means is the welfare state by crisis must be completely dismantled. Because its unsustainable not the least of which is the society it produces.
YR I'd imagine any society dedicated to helping poor Whites would be declared illegal and suppressed immediately. It certainly violates the Civil Rights framework, which demands discrimination against Whites in order to help non-Whites. Which in turn has the force of law and Supreme Court decisions on its side.
Whiskey,
Whites can PRIVATELY form a group dedicated to helping poor-European-American whites without getting any help from the government. This is very much legal. The media wont like it, but as long as the group doesn't say anything negative about other groups, there is no way they can be called "racist" that will stick. They are looking out for their own. Jewish groups get together all the time and look out for their own, why can the European-decended whites. Its merely a framework to provide educational monies to at-risk whites and to do a little networking/socializing.
Youre a little defeatist on things Whiskey. There is a whole lot of America left in America. You live in So Cal, so what you are seeing is the worst of the worst. You'd like much of the rest of America, even though it wouldn't be as exciting as what you are used to out there, its pleasantness makes up for it.
Not to be a party pooper, but there is no shortage of "Good Men". Now my definition of "good man" does not include men who are willing to be door mats for high mileage older (30+) feminists. One thing that is goofy is a 25 year old woman looking for a 25 year old man. How dumb is that? Looking for a guy at least 5 years old, if not more, automatically makes a woman look better. There is no substitute for youth.
"Sure some men aim too high but that's hardly a gender-specific fault."
I agree, but there are two big differences:
First, a man who aims too high will get no relationships at all, either short term or long term. A girl who aims too high can easily get a steady stream of short term relationships. So it's very easy for her to fool herself into thinking the problem is that men are commitment-phobic.
The other difference is that girls have a much narrower window of fertility and attractiveness than men. So the consequences of wasting time in the dating market are more serious for girls.
Anyway, the issue is not who has it worse -- girls or men. The point is that the "good man shortage" is essentially a myth.
@ sabril:
A girl who aims too high can easily get a steady stream of short term relationships. So it's very easy for her to fool herself into thinking the problem is that men are commitment-phobic.
Or that there just aren't any good men out there.
I'm not sure how many people watch Jersey Shore, but this describes Snookie to a tee. In fact, after Roissy's article on the Duke slut Karen Owen, where he explains this:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/the-duke-rejection-list/
I immediately noticed how incredibly accurate it was with regards to Snookie.
Snookie typifies the ugly, but loose and irrationally confident 20-something female who gets pumped and dumped by alphas of whom none will commit to her. She spends many episodes yearning for a steady boyfriend, yet can't get one. Meanwhile, her hotter friend, Jenny, has little problem getting men to commit.
I'd also add that you don't hear men complaining all the time about the lack of "good women".
One STDV
I look at various paleo blogs and it is a real coming together. The exterminationist anti semites are singing the exact same tune as the most aggressive philo semites. So thank you for finding some common ground that can bring together the paleo - o -sphere
Let me summarize here,
The traditionalists are looking for a society in which male 5s can marry a female 5 that is either a virgin or close to it.
Let's assume that in that same society male 9s can marry female 9s that are virginal or close to virginal.
As Laura Wood illustrates, the dream of the female paleos is nearly the same as the dream of the male paleos. Female paleos also want a world in which near virginal females marry males that are equal to them in terms of attractiveness. I think the effort to find differences between what female paleos like Laura want and what male paleos want is silly.
We all know that in many parts of the USA (but not all parts of the USA) the mormon churches offer just such a society. Now, Whiskey you made the point that Mormonism may only be a solution for younger men, not for older men. I would be interested in hearing from Mormons as to whether that is true.
My question is, what other socities in the US offer this. Are there certain evangelical churches in the US that offer this?
Let's put it another way, if a young man attends an evangelical christian college, will he find virginal females at his level who will marry him? I am thinking Oral Roberts U, places like that.
Now, the post about Snooki was dead on. What Snooki needed was, at the age of 14, was for her aunts, grandmothers, sisters, and mother to all come together and tell her in no uncertain terms that she was not a 9 and that she would never get male 9s to commit to her. in earlier generations the older women in snookis family would have made this clear to her and encouraged her to try to bond at a young age with a male of equivalent attractiveness.
If snooki was forced to accept her place in the heirarchy things would work better.
i think that there is a small element of randomness in the world. that is there really are some snookis you can encounter in the world that are married to alpha male 9s.
This is the "playing the lottery" aspect. females focus on the one winner, the one female 4 married to an alpha male 9 and are too dumb to realize that is a one in a hundred occurrence.
Snooki just doesnt get it because the older females in her life failed her
@ OneSTDV:
Your description of Snookie reminds me of this quote
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so."
@ Anonymous:
Very interesting quote. I wonder if it applies to Snookie.
Perhaps the irrational confidence is merely a defense mechanism against the truth?
"Or that there just aren't any good men out there."
Well it's basically the same complaint.
As others have pointed out, girls are pre-programmed to have "erotic tunnel vision." The majority of men they meet are simply outside their erotic field of view.
Further, the process is largely subconscious so it really seems to the girl that there aren't any good men.
"I'd also add that you don't hear men complaining all the time about the lack of 'good women'."
Well I see comments along these lines on HBD and game blogs. But I agree that in the mainstream media, it's pretty unusual to see an article lamenting the shortage of marrigeable (or dateable) girls.
@ sabril, who said, "Anyway, the issue is not who has it worse -- girls or men. The point is that the 'good man shortage' is essentially a myth."
Totally agree. When I said that aiming too high was not a gender-specific fault, I didn't mean that the consequences of doing so were the same for men and women. But Gem made it sound as if only men wanted a 10 as a partner, as if women were somehow fairer in their assessments and goals. That's patently untrue.
Anyway, good points, thanks.
@ OneSTDV, who said, "I'm not sure how many people watch Jersey Shore, but this describes Snookie to a tee."
You're making me feel faint again.
And not in a good way.
What no one is mentioning here is that some of us may reject the very concept of living life according to some externally defined set of milestones. I've always considered my life to be my own. This means that I pursue whatever objectives that I choose for myself, not live by the dictates of others. What some of you (both pro and con in this debate) can't seem to wrap your heads around is the fact that maybe some of us choose not to get married and have kids because we have other, more interesting objectives we want instead, regardless of whether women are good or bad.
Another thing to consider is that the marriage/kids thing really is 30 years of wage/debt slavery even if the marriage is stable and everything is fine. Some of us may choose to avoid this option for no other reason than the fact that it is easier to save for international life style retirement if one remains single, enjoy what hobbies and outdoor sports you do like, and live a frugal life style.
People like Hymowitz, Wood, and others can't seem to grasp this concept at all.
Instead of reflexively blaming this generation of men for an organic listlessness, perhaps one should consider the societal forces imposed upon him.
Dead things are carried by the current, it's the living things can swim against it. It would appear that most men are born to follow, few to lead.
"What some of you (both pro and con in this debate) can't seem to wrap your heads around is the fact that maybe some of us choose not to get married and have kids because we have other, more interesting objectives we want instead, regardless of whether women are good or bad."
Kurt, we are all familiar with this position. It is the extinctionist position. Hey, it's a free county. Do whatever you want. The topic of this thread, however, pertains to those concerned about a future beyond the demise of the current generations.
There's a lot of talk about how women have better employment and college graduation, but what does these preadult women actually do, to make themselves amenable and likeable to men, and why should men like them?
Single men have never been civilization's most responsible actors; they continue to be more troubled and less successful than men who deliberately choose to become husbands and fathers.
Well, medieval monks, Leibniz, Newton and celibate priests were pretty good by premodern standards (in terms of building civilization). Interesting there's no parallel criticism of the lack of responsibility of single mothers and maiden aunts.
Single motherhood was strongly stigmatized at the time. As for maiden aunts, the same institution which maintained abbeys full of monks also had cloisters full of nuns; this didn't just help keep up learning, it removed surplus women from the reproductive pool and helped keep population pressures in check.
Hmm.. for 50 years feminists have been saying that women don't need men, that fathers and husbands are unnecessary, etc etc. Now they're angry because men are taking them at their word and going their own way. Funny, that.
@ Novaseeker
Yeah, while average guys may drool over and fantasize about super hotties, the vast majority of them would gladly settle for an average girl for real-life dating and relationships. Problem is, a lot of those average girls don't want an average guy.
Sure, some plain Janes marry average Joes while they're still young and it works out just fine. But the longer female 5s ride the carousel, the less appealing male 5s will be to them for dating and relationships.
Most feminists are either sluts or lesbians. Most women these days are feminists. Why would I want to marry one when I she puts out so easy?
"Does it strike males that modern life isn't too easy on women either (especially geeky/nerdy types)? We have to cope with a barrage of media images detailing what the perfect female form should be, obsession with youth (God help you if you get so much as a wrinkle), weight hangups and the such. Try looking through the female jeans section at any clothes shop."
I think bitching about the opposite sex is pretty universal.
But, seriously, now, Gem, everyone knows geeky girls never have a problem picking up guys. Go to a computer store or sf convention and flirt a little. ;)
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