The first being, that one of the commenters above mentioned how "proles" will respond to naked racial political appeals. That may indeed be true, but then that raises another question - the vast majority of the readers here, have a less than favorable view of proles to begin with.First, "Anonymous" contends that HBDers have a "less than favorable view of proles". Of course, he offers no evidence supporting this hypothesis, but I'll admit that such a perspective isn't uncommon on HBD sites. However, I have never personally countenanced a culturally elitist perspective; though I have supported a cognitive elitist stance, which often corresponds to class due to the connection between class and intelligence. The latter notion, that a cognitive elite exists and exhibits less socially pathological behavior, is a verifiable fact that even liberal creationists accept, granted the relevant group is the "correct" one. The former notion, that this cognitive elite has constructed a parallel upper class culture of higher objective value than lower class culture, is undermined by one imagining a tranny projectile vomiting on Susan Sarandon or Upper West side elites purchasing the scribbles of a three year old for thousands of dollars. Sure, watching 40 cars turn left for three hours seems odd to you and me, but so does swimming in a dumpster or tattooing a mustache on your finger.
The occasional disdain shown for proles on alt-right sites derives from their repudiation of stable, middle-class norms. This in turn motivates depressive culture, as in teen pregnancy and obesity. However, those bloggers and commenters who excoriate proles for supposed cultural vacuousness independent of these bad behaviors do express actual elitism.
Second, and building on the first supposition, the "anonymous" commenter then implies that a divide in culture must create a divide in politics. As if, hand holding must extend from the boardroom, to the voting booths, to the bar. The left's amusing coalition of disparate group undermines this supposition, with upper class, secular, class elitist Jews voting for the same inane policies as the church-going, uneducated, ghetto blacks. So really, the cultural divide between groups needn't enervate their political alliances. The contrary type of thinking got Bush II, a blue-blood New England WASP who ended up in Texas, elected twice despite his liberal politics. If two groups share a common political vision despite holding different positions within that future nation, then so be it.
One final note on "Anonymous''" brilliant insight. He clearly attempts to shame HBDers, who he believes harbor a potent disdain towards proles, out of conservative politics. Of course, such a strategy has actually worked wonderfully for the upper classes, whereby status seeking motivates political opinion far more than concern for what actually works. Inherent to "Anonymous'" comment is the notion that HBDers can't possibly agree with those uncouth proles they look down upon.
But, as stated above, I can easily separate the man from his political opinions. If an uneducated hillbilly wants to vote for the same thing I do, then who cares about his snaggle tooth or the fact that we couldn't converse for more than 3 minutes? Just don't bother me for cigarettes at 3 in the morning or try to hit on my daughter.
16 comments:
I see that what Ghandi said was true. ;)
First, please allow me to present, in full, what I actually said yesterday for those that might have missed it:
"As per usual, there are a number of problems I see with this post.
The first being, that one of the commenters above mentioned how "proles" will respond to naked racial political appeals. That may indeed be true, but then that raises another question - the vast majority of the readers here, have a less than favorable view of proles to begin with. But I suppose they can put that aside when the prole groups provide something useful to them, in this case, votes. Very interesting.
Second, the candidate mentioned above was indeed speaking to an economic reality, but he wasn't being completely honest about it. The simple truth is, that the GOP is beholden to cheap labor, which explains why Alabama is full of illegals. If he was serious he'd be for a brutal crackdown on the businesses that hire illegals, but he knows that would be political suicide, so he doesn't go there. He instead attempts to the sensibilities of white prole voters. He lost.
Badly."
Clearly, I was speaking to the tendency of a political party, in this case but in no way not solely limited to the GOP, to use a kind of class pandering - in this case, making naked racial appeals to lower and working class Whites, who are often as poor and in some cases, are poorer, than their Black counterparts, to get votes. Nor is this anything new - Nixon did it with the southern strategy, and Reagan doubled down on that when he ran for president in the early 80s. But if what happened in Alabama back in Nov is any indication, this time not only didn't it work, but it may just be the start of a trend.
Here's what an actual AL resident and reader of this blog, had to say about the matter:
"BamaResident said...
Eh, to be fair Tim James is a bit of a phony. Most people in Alabama know that, hence why he lost the primary. Despite his rhetoric, his construction company on the Alabama gulf coast was a major employer of illegal aliens. He's just a typical "good ole boy"; after all, his Dad was governor a few decades ago too."
Which goes precisely to my point - and I note with great interest, that OneSTDV has yet to actually respond to his commenter's well-put points.
Perhaps he will take the time on this thread to do so?
- Anonymous
PS: Dave, if you're reading along, bravo!
Somebody should specify what is meant here by "prole." There's obviously a big difference between rural and urban working-class people, and between working-class people of different races.
Which goes precisely to my point - and I note with great interest, that OneSTDV has yet to actually respond to his commenter's well-put points.
I responded to what I was responded to. I refuse to engage with you (I'm almost 100% confident this is who I think it is).
I only used your comment as a springboard to a post I've been meaning to write for awhile.
Every race has its "rednecks" or "proles".
There are Mexican Rednecks in the barrio and MS-13 (and many other Hispanic Gangs). There are Black Rednecks in the Ghetto (Crips, Bloods, etc.) There are now plenty of Muslim Rednecks in Gangs across the West now (article on them in "Policemag.com" here):
http://www.policemag.com/Blog/Gangs/Story/2009/11/The-Rise-of-Muslim-Gangs.aspx
There is one particularily annoying Middle Eastern Gang called "Kurdish Pride" in my area (Google them).
Everybody has their "rednecks".
-----------------------------------
What elites have done relative to the situation above however is a "anger misdirection". They have been able, with help of the media and entertainment, to snow liberal whites into blaming much of civil danger out there on rural and lower-class whites in trailers. Most rural or lower class whites living in trailers have jobs in corrugated metal buildings making about $8-an-hour or in the service economy. Both mom and dad work. Yep, there is some meth (because they can make it themselves) and some alcohol, and the always- present cigarettes. A few of them turn to crime, but they aren't nearly as dangerous as the "rednecks" of other races.
Be glad they are not.
White Rednecks aren't nearly as dangerous as Black, Hispanic, or Middle Eastern Rednecks on average because they know they will be outnumbered in prison, and most truly dont want the stigma of having to join (and get tattooed by) a group like the Aryan Nations that will stigmatize their life chances for the rest of their days when back on the outside.
Yes, redneck whites "get tatted up" with ink, and some further try to demarcate their badassery with piercings, so they look off-putting. A lot of that is simply to look-threatening enough so that they aren't brutalized themselves, like a porcupine fluffing up its quills to remind a threatening bobcat that it's no easy meal. Same thing. Most are well-aware of their station in life, and will happily avoid you if you avoid them. That cannot be said for the others.
@OneSTDV
You said:
The occasional disdain shown for proles on alt-right sites derives from their repudiation of stable, middle-class norms. This in turn motivates depressive culture, as in teen pregnancy and obesity. However, those bloggers and commenters who excoriate proles for supposed cultural vacuousness independent of these bad behaviors do express actual elitism.
I think there is a bit of syncretism going on here - and I think that saying culture/class is in some way immaterial and that disdain for 'proles' is not common amongst any group of intellectuals is simply willfully ignorant.
Conflating hipster behavior (dumpster swimming pool, finger moustache tattoo) with 'prole' behavior is just as misplaced. Hipster cognoscenti types do these things in an intentionally ironic fashion.
I think it's a fair generalization that, like/admit it or not, smart people probably had smart parents, who had smart parents too - and they transmitted a certain discriminating culture to their descendants - and that tends to reenforce a degree of contempt for 'proles' and their own cultural capital.
the "anonymous" commenter then implies that a divide in culture must create a divide in politics.
But you must acknowledge that it has in fact done so. Many, many of the actions the political elite take are explicable only as an attack on white proles. The SWPL overclass has spent many decades attacking white proles, with great success, and the war continues. Tragically, given the overclass's control of politics, the media, and education, the proles have few effective ways to fight back.
By the way, you ought to care about class and politics. The class divide is the reason "white unity" is most unlikely to occur, because the white overclass hates the proles and does not want to unite with them.
@Onestdv
Well the difference between the anti-prole sentiment of websites like alternet versus the anti-prole sentiment of many hbd blogs, is that the hbd blogs are not paranoid about proles. Liberals act as if proles secretly control the world. Liberals go on and on about how rednecks are destroying America and the world. I have never read any sort of nonsense like that on a hbd blog about proles. Thats what is so off putting about liberals is that they think rednecks are some how a secret cabal that controls the global economy and culture. Liberals see rednecks the same way that neo-nazis see the Jews.
Sometimes I think Liberals wished that a group of rednecks were behind 9-11. Actually a lot of the popularity of 9-11 conspiracies among liberals are for that reason. Liberals think of Bush and Cheney as rednecks, which means in the mind of many alternuts they were behind 9-11 rather than innocent brown skinned followers of the religion of peace.
Liberals frame everything as being them and people of color against armies of evil redneck fascists. I think deep down they fantastize that Sarah Palin will descend from Alaska with an army of gun toting inbred yokels. That they will enslave people of color, and force people to go to church. Then some mighty black hero will emerge and defeat Palin's armies. Then a thousand year reich shall descend upon the land, with the mighty black hero and his descendents ruling as an aristocracy. That all people shall become brown and black, and white people will merely be the stuff of nightmares. That is how silly liberal thinking is to me on rednecks. They are as apocalyptic as the evangelicals.
Proles are quite silly and stupid to me. However, I do not pretend that they will conquer the world or rule the world. Liberals in my opinion really want to have holy war with the proles. A redneck armageddon. Half Sigma, you, and nobody else who comments on or writes a hbd blog has expressed this desire for a redneck armageddon or paranoia over rednecks ruling the world.
"the cultural divide between groups needn't enervate their political alliances."
Except that the left's coalition adds to their numbers and power while HBD's divisions subtract from their's. The left doesn't call its black members trash.
HBD is just another place where cowards go to hide from confrontation with the liberal establishment, in general, but particularly about race. The real message is being sent to Big Sis, and the message is "we're harmless, we're impotent and intend to stay that way, we'll never participate in any sort of mass movement that might actually be a political threat to you, ple-e-e-ase don't hurt us!" And it works, as they are basically ignored by the establishment because they are no threat (kinda like National Review). If you peruse HBD sites you'll notice how little actual space they devote to the nominal reason for HBD, racial differences in intelligence that negatively effect society and how much they devote to simple self-worship, or class hatred, or some other arcane subject of no real relevance to the present situation. Some of these HBD types are obvious trolls, purposely dividing the opposition. Virtually all of them are objectively working for the enemy, helping in his little divide and conquer project.
@NutUp: Liberals frame everything as being them and people of color against armies of evil redneck fascists. I think deep down they fantastize that Sarah Palin will descend from Alaska with an army of gun toting inbred yokels. That they will enslave people of color, and force people to go to church. Then some mighty black hero will emerge and defeat Palin's armies. Then a thousand year reich shall descend upon the land, with the mighty black hero and his descendents ruling as an aristocracy. That all people shall become brown and black, and white people will merely be the stuff of nightmares.
I think there's a lot of truth to this. But I think "redneck" is not a broad enough term for what we're talking about. "Joe Six-Pack" (the white urban proletarian) and "Joe Pickup" (the white rural manual worker) seem to me to be better choices. These are the people who terrified SWPL in the 1980s when they left the Dems in order to vote for Reagan, twice.
In the minds of SWPL, these are the people who make up the poll numbers against same-sex marriage, against abortion on demand, against affirmative action, etc. These are the sad, ignorant, backwards, unreconstructed lumpen menschen who need to have progress imposed upon them from Washington, New York, and LA, for their own good.
Anonymous at 4:18,
Your reasoning is why I want to see a positive white consciousness-movement arise, a boosterism movement that professionally, educationally, and socially can help whites help both themselves and other whites.
I'd like to see whites also get to erect some form of "cultural forts" in various diverse cities in America whereby they can find some respite and solidarity amongst their own in real physical space. I dont know if Medieval or Rennaisance-themed bars or private clubs could do the trick or not, but think about what a Mexican bar, a Mosque, a Black Club, or even a Synagogue represents to the people who go there:
Its a place where they can go to be amongst "their own". Whites have something like this in your average biker bar, but 90% of whites will not feel comfortable in a biker bar.
SWPL whites have "cultural forts" in every ACLU chapter, PETA chapter, Sierra Club Chapter, and various independent bookstores across the land.
Average and conservative whites dont have squat though. Except a few online forums, they basically aren't allowed to privately meet in any public space other than in house-parties as European-descended peoples to discuss their fates and futures. I hope something can fill this vacum.
Obviously folks here don't know what rednecks are.
Rednecks are whites who work outdoors and get their necks sunburned. They are not just simply lower class whites, although some are. Some are also skilled workers or even supervisors in jobs done outdoors. The bottom 10% of whites are pretty annoying but even they aren't as bad as the bottom third of blacks and hispanics. And the bottom 10% of whites aren't as dysfunctional as the bottom third of blacks and hispanics.
Their biggest threat to society is their birthrate and that is only because we incentivize their reproduction. Their birthrate would drop precipitously without gov't handouts.
The divide between SWPL and White Prole isn't just a class divide. It's practically a solid geographical and ethnic line. These 'proles' are often not even defined by their working class background or current working class status.
It's not clear to me that George Bush or Dick Cheney are in any way proles or their families could be considered so for several generations before them, but they are still 'proles' in that they are or were the leadership of the descendents of the Anglo-Normans, French Hugonots, and Scots-Irish that settled the American South.
It's certainly not clear that the original cause of this political divide is one of class. I'm sure one can now transcend the divide with an appropriately high SES along with the correct SWPL parroting and especially geographically relocating oneself to a more fashionable part of the country, or world; but none of that means that the actual origin of ideological differences is class, or at least the current class dynamics.
If it can be said to be one of class it is almost certainly a case of a legacy of bitterness from the multiple centuries when the ancestors of "The Racists" or 'proles' were the social betters and even owners of the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxon SWPLs.
As another noticed, the divide between the 'classes' in white America isn't characterized by a disdain for a social milieu or various tastless lifestyle choices. The fervor with which the hatred and fear is manifested against these people is one characterized by ethnic or religious conflicts. That's because it is one.
Average and conservative whites dont have squat though.
College Republicans? Yet this, like the Tea Party, is only implicitly white.
I agree that it's a shame intelligent, conservative, non-bitter whites don't have a place to congregate.
K(yle):
Would you describe yourself as a newly-forged "Heismanist"?
I don't believe I've seen you mention the Saxon-Norman conflict before Suicide Note was published, but I might have missed it.
I haven't read all of Suicide Note (and doubtful few have). I hope to finish it one day, but doing it via PDF is grueling.
I wouldn't call myself a 'Heismanist' since I don't fully have a handle on the points he was making.
I cribbed the language more than the idea, which is standard Post-Colonial theory. Locke discusses the Norman Conquest, and Jefferson touches on it briefly, both of which are regrettebly unmissable reads for any native English speaker and I read both in my late teens.
George Fitzhugh explicitly states that the American Civil War was an ethnic conflict as well in 'Slaves Without Masters' which I had read years before Heisman as well. The idea that the ACW was an extension of the ECW is pretty well trod among Lost Cause mythologists.
I only started writing under this moniker in 2009 I believe and most of my early posts were Game related. I've written about the basic formulation of the conflict before but I probably cast it as Jacobites versus Whigs. Fitzhugh's writing didn't shift me in the Anglo-Saxon versus Norman direction as much as Heisman's did, as I was probably detached from Fitzhugh's pro-slavery argument and approached the work as something hostile. I also had a much better handle on the history of the English Civil War by the time I started picking up pieces of Suicide Note.
In the end it is semantics anyway, but Norman and Anglo-Saxon get to the root of the conflict in a much more visceral fashion than Jacobite, Whig, Cavalier or Roundhead, require no one to Google any terms, et cetera.
So perhaps not newly-forged per se, as I was already sympathetic to the line of thought, but newly-tempered for certain. I'd say I was more influenced by Mencius Moldbug than Suicide Note, but I think Moldbug's grand narrative view of things seriously discounts the potential for and intensity of non-ideological/religious/memetic specifically ethnic conflicts.
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