They can try to gain self-confidence all they want, but you can't force people to find you attractive. Further, it's not unreasonable to associate fatness with laziness, slothfulness, lack of willpower, and a slovenly appearance.In general, feminism seeks to norm unattractive behavior and personality traits in order to garner social acceptance and self-esteem. While these blowhards might pay lip service to equality, most feminists want to undermine a value hierarchy with them at the bottom.
Contrary to my default cynicism, I do find their basic goal somewhat laudable. It does provide those wallowing in depression a forum to vent their frustration. But feminists and the incipient fat acceptance movement cross a line when trying to impose their perverse standards of beauty on the larger public. And in doing so, they express a palpable enmity towards "traditionally attractive" individuals while their indignation belies a seemingly uncaring demeanor.
Take the new ABC Family show Huge about a bunch of fatties at fat camp who aren't gonna take it anymore!
Huge, a new show about teens at fat camp, and that stars Hairspray's Nikki Blonsky, premieres next week on ABC Family. Judging by this interview with Blonsky, and by the promos, this show is going to do its best to break the mold. Seriously, how often do you hear lines like "everyone wants us to hate our bodies. Well, I refuse to" in the mainstream media? How often do you hear a fat person saying, proudly and without remorse, that they have no intention of losing any weight?I agree: don't hate your body, but don't decry the general public for having a biologically motivated standard of beauty. Of course, Ms. Feministing can't help but glorify the chubby while denigrating the fit. So much for equality:
I saw a big billboard advertising Huge last week, and it made me smile. There was Nikki Blonsky, a big fat gorgeous woman in a bathing suit, five stories high on the side of a building, advertising the new show that she's starring in. But then, I turned the corner and staring back at me was an equally large billboard for H & M, featuring two women in bikinis who were anything but huge. And I was reminded that of all the ads I was going to see that day, Blonsky's was the exception.I must ask if feminists actually consider anyone to be ugly. Does such a characterization even exist? In a parallel story, the feminist blogosphere is angry that their cherished political commentary show, The Daily Show, hired a hot girl for their open correspondence position:
One female comedian who has auditioned multiple times for the show says, "Looking back, it was ridiculous of me to even prepare! Should I have gone to the gym more? Done Playboy? It's such a joke."Feminists would do well to squelch such open ire towards attractive girls. It reflects an underlying bitterness amongst their commentariat and undermines the purported intentions of their camp.
38 comments:
"I must ask if feminists actually consider anyone to be ugly."
I don't know about feminists, but not considering people ugly is one of the aspirations we refer to when we talk about "common decency."
"I must ask if feminists actually consider anyone to be ugly."
I don't know, but they don't seem to have much sympathy for short men.
"Common decency" might demand that you refrain from informing a person of her ugliness, but it shouldn't prevent you from observing the reality of her ugliness. That would be known as "self-delusion."
Everyone can't be pretty. If so, the term no longer has any meaning. Or maybe its Orwellian. To paraphrase the pigs (fitting) from Animal Farm:
"All women are beautiful, but some women are more beautiful than others."
I don't know, but they don't seem to have much sympathy for short men.
Do any women have much sympathy for short men?
This is another manifestation of liberal creationism.
Intelligent, healthy, attractive people are the most fit and all of those attributes correlate, albeit not 100%.
Liberals despise the principles of fitness and selection.
Why would an intelligent, educated, personable, attractive man want a fat ugly bitch to breed with?
It is absurd.
Even long before any science of evolution was articulated, everyone knew such obvious ideas.
There is a crisis of honesty in this age.
Low self esteem among the ugly is a good thing.
It makes it less likely they will find a mate and breed.
@ OneSDTV
Some of Germany's right-wing politicians are asking for IQ test for new immigrants...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,703328,00.html
"I don't know about feminists, but not considering people ugly is one of the aspirations we refer to when we talk about 'common decency.'"
Calling them ugly and disparaging them for it, sure, that's indecent. But not *finding* people ugly relates to decency? Even babies prefer attractive faces, suggesting it's not purely a social construct. http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/langloislab/stereotype.html
Eat less, exercise more.
What's so complicated about that?
Burn more calories than one takes in, and watch the pounds just melt off!
Sadly... Doing that will take some discipline, which is in short supply in this society that's full of people who can't even bother to write a simple letter to their representative(s) in Congress.
"Eat less, exercise more.
What's so complicated about that?
Burn more calories than one takes in, and watch the pounds just melt off!"
Sounds swell.
How about folks like me who can sit on their butts all day for years and easily stay at a 19.5 BMI?
I am over 40 female.
If I exercise just a little, like 20 minutes a day 2x a week, I end up at BMI of 18.5? Mom, auntie, grandma, etc. all the same.
Being a fatty is genetic, just like being skinny.
Likewise, mom, granny etc were all star students and very cute. It is genetic.
We all landed intelligent able spouses. Shocker!
Re: the Daily Show thing - they seem less upset about her being attractive than about the not implausible idea of a non-funny beautiful woman being hired over a funnier but plain woman for what is billed as a comedy show. I can't say I would blame a more talented non-beauty for being upset that her skills can only take her so far.
I like the comedy writing done by Tina Fey & Amy Poehler, but I have no doubt that despite their talent, I know who they are because they were lucky enough to be born attractive and thus be given the opportunity to do TV work.
Burning more calories than you take in is simple.
Making one's body burn more calories than one takes in, when one's metabolic rate has been messed up by sedentary jobs, HFCS and other engineered nutrient-deficient food components, and wildcards like adenovirus... that's the hard part.
they seem less upset about her being attractive than about the not implausible idea of a non-funny beautiful woman being hired over a funnier but plain woman for what is billed as a comedy show. I can't say I would blame a more talented non-beauty for being upset that her skills can only take her so far.
I haven't seen much of Olivia Munn, but she's surely qualified:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yet1txqaxH8
I think they just assume that because she's hot, she must NOT be funny.
I don't know about feminists, but not considering people ugly is one of the aspirations we refer to when we talk about "common decency."
This is a sentiment I've encountered a lot in real life when I discuss topics like this. I would never go up to some random fat person and start chiding them for being ugly. This isn't about personally attacking individuals; it's simply about the notion that "ugly" exists.
Where's my man Sagat? He normally gives it to the fatties mercilessly, with both barrels.
Fat folks run for cover when he joins the blog.
There are few things funnier than watching a fat girl cry into a bowl of ice cream.
Unless they're Samoan, I assume fat people have personality flaws that have lead to their grotesque appearance.
"I have a thyroid problem" is a euphemism for "I have no self-control".
Well, I read somewhere on the net about men complaining about all the hot, fit male models in male mags like Maxim and GQ and how their publishers must be trying to push straight men into becoming gay. These men were saying that if they have to see a male model, he should "look like a real man."
These men are just as pathetic as the feminists. The difference, of course, is that none of these men are absorbing millions of government dollars in Men's Studies programs to cry on each other's shoulders and preach their retarded ideology to gullible college students, nor are they polluting the airwaves and internets with their butthurt expatiation to anywhere near the degree their intersex counterparts do. The solution to feminist stupidity is not more masculist stupidity.
Anyone remember "King-size Homer" from The Simpons?
It's the episode where Homer bulked up to 350 pounds so that the Nuclear Plant would have to let him work from home to accomodate his "disability".
That may be their best episode ever.
"I haven't seen much of Olivia Munn, but she's surely qualified:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yet1txqaxH8"
That was lame. Comically speaking, she was blown off the stage by Artie Lange, who got about twenty times as many laughs as she did.
That's as low as you can go when it comes to sucking at comedy.
Also she acted just like how you'd expect some idiot who doesn't know anything about comedy to act, constantly laughing like a dilettante who never heard a joke before...
Laughing too much at the jokes of others, and especially laughing sometimes even at the non-jokes of others, is the ultimate beta move in the World of comedy.
I'm surprised you have such bad taste in comedy, 1.
I don't know about feminists, but not considering people ugly is one of the aspirations we refer to when we talk about "common decency."
OneSDTV:
This is a sentiment I've encountered a lot in real life when I discuss topics like this. I would never go up to some random fat person and start chiding them for being ugly. This isn't about personally attacking individuals; it's simply about the notion that "ugly" exists.
The title of your post is self-indulgently cruel. You aren't entitled to that pose of analytical neutrality.
John:
Everyone can't be pretty. If so, the term no longer has any meaning.
Do you use the word "ugly" to refer to all people who aren't pretty, or does it refer to a specific subset within that group? Putting aside ridicule, how important would it be to publicly identify that subset?
Anonymous:
But not *finding* people ugly relates to decency? Even babies prefer attractive faces, suggesting it's not purely a social construct.
I don't think that OneSDTV was using the word "consider" to refer to private and unexpressed thoughts. I'm sure he believes, as you do, that these feelings are inevitable, and that feminists, like all people, make private judgments on who is and isn't attractive.
"I have a thyroid problem" is a euphemism for "I have no self-control".
Thyroid problems are real. Linda Ronstadt, for example, has Hashimoto's Disease, a type of autoimmune thyroid disease that causes inflammation of the thyroid, resulting in gradual destruction of the thyroid and concomitant hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid). Obesity is one of the usual side effects.
"Do you use the word "ugly" to refer to all people who aren't pretty?"
No, I use the work "ugly" to refer to people who are ugly.
"Putting aside ridicule, how important would it be to publicly identify that subset?"
My first post answers this question.
As for the new Daily Show castmember - never heard of her, and I rarely watch the show, so I have no idea of her talents. I do find it frustrating when lesser talented but attractive girls get work in fields for which their attractiveness shouldn't be relevant.
But not for the same reason as feminists. It bothers me that so many men are so dumb that simply staring at a pretty female is entertaining for them. If I watch a comedy show, I want to see funny people, not just hot chicks who can barely time the punchline properly. When I watch the news, I want to see someone who understands the stories - not Robin Meade babbling incoherently like a junior high schooler. When I watch sports, I want the sideline reporter to ask relevant questions; I don't want some idiot with a pretty face asking nonsense.
If I want to look at pretty women, I know where to go.
"Thyroid problems are real."
Absolutely.
Laziness is real, too.
What % of fatties have a genuine medical condition?
It is not 100%, which leaves the vast majority who are lazy.
So, my follow up question is now that women marry later, how many will get fat before they attract a spouse and therefore end up with fewer kids (mercifully) ?
I think feminists are upset over the fact that it is possible for fat men to sleep with/date/marry attractive women, but fat women rarely do the same with attractive men.
Also, the description of the show reminds me of the movie Heavyweights, a 1995 comedy about fat kids at fat camp (along with a crazy fitness guru camp owner).
@ "Woman with Desi obsession and a million sock puppets a.k.a. Bag Lady":
Haven't you realized that for the past week or so I have deleted all your comments?
Take the hint please.
Dude this one is easy.
Feminists take "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" very seriously, or at least appear to do so.
Thats all. This is, of course false...but thats their apparent maxim.
John-
"Common decency" might demand that you refrain from informing a person of her ugliness, but it shouldn't prevent you from observing the reality of her ugliness. That would be known as "self-delusion."
Common decency does certainly demand, though, that you not refer to fat women as pigs, as you have done. That's just acting like a bully. You guys claim to be so in love with truth, and calling it like it is, but you act like assholes and then refuse to own up to it.
I use the work "ugly" to refer to people who are ugly.
Kind of disappointing, too, that you won't communicate except in tautology. It's not something to be proud of.
Honestly, John, others, how do you define ugliness?
Contemplationist-
Feminists take "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" very seriously... This is, of course false...but thats their apparent maxim.
It isn't false. Just because people are extremely likely to agree on what is and isn't beautiful, doesn't make that maxim untrue.
In fact, our tendency to agree on what's beautiful makes it all the more valuable and refreshing to remember that beauty is a human construct.
There's a need on this site to confuse objective and subjective qualities. I would like to better understand the source of this need.
"Kind of disappointing, too, that you won't communicate except in tautology."
Your posts are unnecessarily long winded and reek of pseudo-intellectualism. In response to your overcomplication, I was exaggerating the simplicity of the issue.
You know what ugly means, in the physical sense. Most fat women are ugly, although some do have pretty faces. People with grossly disproportionate or unbalanced facial features. Eyes too far apart, etc. The people that you see and find it hard to believe that a human can actually look like that. Its like pornography - you know it when you see it; even if its difficult to explain verbally.
Sense you are asking for things to be spelled out: no, I don't refer to plain or average people as ugly. I refer to them as plain or average. And no, I don't use one's physical appearance as a measure of their self-worth. There's nothing in my previous posts that would indicate otherwise, but you seem like the sort of self-congratulating dipstick that assumes such things about people who don't pretend that the fat sweaty girl with massive acne scars, a giant nose and beedy eyes is just as pretty as the slender woman with perfectly balanced facial features.
"Common decency does certainly demand, though, that you not refer to fat women as pigs"
If there are any fat women reading this blog, I apologize for my joke. As I wrote the section paraphrasing the pigs quote from Animal Farm, I found the unintended pun amusing, and I pointed it out. No real harm meant, but my sense of humor can be harsh. I can live with it if Dave or anyone else doesn't like me for it. Feel free to boycott any future posts.
"but you act like assholes and then refuse to own up to it."
I act like an asshole. I don't think this is the right website for you. Maybe something more Disney would be appropriate. You're not going to change anyone's mind with your soft, overly emotional tripe. This place is populated with analytical, partially non-emotional individuals who tend to be blunt. You'll find yourself growing more and more frustrated here as your attempts to feminize us continue to fall short.
@ John
"I can live with it if Dave or anyone else doesn't like me for it."
I like you for it. I detest people like Dave. And I'm someone whom many people would consider an ugly old queen.
"In fact, our tendency to agree on what's beautiful makes it all the more valuable and refreshing to remember that beauty is a human construct."
You should read Roissy's blog. He makes a pretty convincing case that standards of beauty are to a large extent inborn.
For example, there apparently was a study where blind men had to choose (by touch) which female manequins were most attractive and they chose manequins with the same bust/waste/hips ratio that sighted men prefer.
___________
"I don't know about feminists, but not considering people ugly is one of the aspirations we refer to when we talk about 'common decency.'"
I disagree. Ignoring unpleasant realities might seem decent, but it can cause a lot of problems. For example, it may seem nice to ignore the fact that blacks are inherently stupid (relatively, in general, and on average), but the usual consequence is that black failure is blamed on white racism. How is it decent to slander an entire race of people?
"Sense you are asking for things to be spelled out: no, I don't refer to plain or average people as ugly. I refer to them as plain or average."
You guys all know each other, and all share a lot of the same ideas, so you can talk in a familiar shorthand. I'm not from here, so I'll need some things tediously spelled out. Explaining our belief systems to one another and engaging in debate is one of the practices of us pseudo-intellectuals.
Anyway, what I was thinking is that it would be useful to have a good definition of what "ugliness" is. Not really in terms of BMI or pimple count, but in terms of how it makes other people feel. When does one cross the threshold from plainness to ugliness?
But the other problem I have with the post itself, (which I think completely fails to present a coherent point of view,) is: what is it that ugly people are doing wrong? They're forcing people to find them attractive? How?
"This place is populated with analytical, partially non-emotional individuals who tend to be blunt."
I would describe myself the same way.
"Ignoring unpleasant realities might seem decent, but it can cause a lot of problems. "
That is certainly true. However, there is certainly a spectrum of decency in how unpleasant realities are addressed.
Perceiving an unpleasant truth is a burden. It now becomes your duty to square your responsibility to communication of that truth with your responsibility to minimize the amount of pain you spread in the world. It's not an excuse to spout off insults.
Most fat people are lazy. Especially young fat people. I mean, if you're a 220 pound girl at 21 imagine what you will look like at 40? Ick. See, there are lots of middle-aged fat people now, but at least 90 percent of them were thin or average weighted in the teens and twenties. Imagine how big the young fat people are going to be in a few decades. Makes me shudder.
I mean, its really not that to indulge in moderation and go on a 3-4 mile run 3-5 times a week. That's all it takes for the average person to stay in a decent weight range.
"I think feminists are upset over the fact that it is possible for fat men to sleep with/date/marry attractive women, but fat women rarely do the same with attractive men."
Not so sure if that's true for guys who don't have money or young men. I would not date a significantly overweight man, and neither would most of my friends. Even though its totally ludicrous, I have overweight female friends who will not date overweight guys despite plenty of people advising them to. They'd rather be alone I guess, which is bizarre, but whatever.
Treadmills are cheap. Fatties should buy themselves one, and take a half-an-hour-brisk-walk a day. 90% of it right there.
"Where's my man Sagat"
Perhaps he was invited by Harvard Law School to teach a class on international law and he's busy putting the syllabus together.
If you were part of a group that was continually socially maligned for reasons beyond their control that had little or nothing to do with their ability to contribute to society, you would probably start an advocacy group to enhance your status.
I find it funny (in a scary way) that you're so adamant that intelligence is mostly genetic but you believe that weight is determined mostly by lifestyle.
Sure most people can control their habits and impact their weight to a varying degrees but body type has a lot more to do with it than we're led to believe.
I find it funny (in a scary way) that you're so adamant that intelligence is mostly genetic but you believe that weight is determined mostly by lifestyle.
And how did you make this conclusion? Quote me making this point.
I love how people attribute to me things I've never said.
Nonetheless, given the much higher rates of obesity in the past decade or so and the prevalence for fat people to binge on processed foods and sugars, most fat people could be much slimmer if they wanted (especially for the obese and not simply overweight individuals).
It occurred to me the other day the certain women hold their bodies hostage, with the demand that they be made into cover girls. When the world refuses their demand, they decide to kill the hostage with slow poison, i.e. overeating. They continue to hate women thinner than them, perhaps hoping that if you eat enough, you can make someone else fat.
Just a theory though.
"...it's not unreasonable to associate fatness with laziness, slothfulness, lack of willpower, and a slovenly appearance."
I would consider laziness a lifestyle choice and not genetic.
I've known a lot of very good athletes who you would consider fat if you saw them on a bus instead of the field. I feel bad for them because, despite their abilities, people can't help but think they eat too many cheeseburgers and shakes.
So what would you do if you were continually grouped with people of lower status based on your appearance or other attribute beyond your control? Would you start a club? Would you feel bitter?
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