Monday, May 24, 2010

Establishment Conservatism and the Rise of Libertarians

With Rand Paul's win in the Kentucky primary and the Tea Party's connection to libertarianism, there's been recent discussion on non-establishment conservatism. Distinguishing between competing right-leaning philosophies isn't a trivial exercise and I avoid it as to shirk ideological loyalty. Perhaps the most rigorous defense of radical conservatism comes from Alternative Right, by way of founding editor Richard Spencer. Here's his article on Rand Paul's win:
I would have voted for him if I lived in the Blue Grass state. Paul's victory is also indicative of the power of the Tea Party movement, which originated with his father's 2008 presidential campaign but has taken on a life of its own.
I first heard about Ron Paul in late 2007, as his iconoclastic views found favor amongst some atheist commentators. But I had little impetus to investigate him further after learning of Dr. Paul's association with 9/11 truthers. Such a despondent view of the American government, no matter how flawed or expansive it may be, is beyond the realm of reasonable discourse.
In his major TV spots, Rand promised not to close Gitmo, stated (albeit vaguely) that "fighting back" was the proper response to 9/11, and flashed a lot of images of Military-Industrial-Complex fighter planes soaring through the sky. Though I thought this kind of stuff was on the wane, the GWOT, "standing tall against Islam," and even Christian Zionism still remain integral parts of the identity politics of Red-State Christian white people.
Here Spencer admonishes the supposed memes of establishment conservatism. Reactionary conservatives like Spencer, with whom I undoubtedly share many viewpoints, believe opposition to militaristic initiatives is a laudably radical sentiment. Because, ya know, everyone loves going to war. Of course, any rational individual considers aggressive military action an undesirable alternative, but albeit, one that's occasionally necessary. This necessity stipulation doesn't apply to naive democracy exportation or nation building, but rather situations where defensive action is warranted.

In doing so, Spencer seems to belittle the "standing tall" stance against Islam and presumably excoriates the military efforts in Afghanistan. But only an abject reductionist could dismiss the collective melancholy following 9/11 as insignificant as to warrant a military response. We needed a swift and decisive reaction to moderate our collective sorrow. Someone attacks us, we attack back. Further, this position assumes Islam presents no imminent challenge to the West, a notion I approach with much credulity. As for Iraq, I'm with Spencer.

In general, America does not exist as the adjudicator of the world's conflicts or the globe's benevolent guardian angel.
We must hold our citizens' rights and desires as the preeminent value; though in highly specific circumstances, we can justifiably veer from this principle. Quick digression on Israel and the Muslim problem: By far the best solution has Israel moving to South America or Africa and Western countries disallowing all Muslim immigration.

Spencer continues by alluding to a seemingly leftist concoction deemed the "Military-Industrial-Complex", perhaps a reactionary parallel to the prison-industry-complex. Here, Spencer does point to an aspect of government profligacy as we likely spend too much on defense. Though, quite simply, Hailburton and Lockheed provide a countless number of jobs. While this isn't sufficient for justifying the high expenditures, it surely undermines the claim that military spending is entirely wasteful. Second, the military invests heavily in research and development of technologies with civilian benefits. One can't underestimate the impact military driven research has for our continuing technological progress. Third, owing to his economic reductionism, Spencer overlooks the nationalistic spirit derived from these admittedly overwrought military memes. The military remains the only decidedly conservative and patriotic American institution, despite the left's attempts at undermining them through multicult and feminist infiltrations. Military strength and defense robustness constitute palatable representations of national strength. The pride engendered by images of fighter planes and austere Marines are integral to our national consciousness.

As for Dr. Paul and Mr. Spencer's libertarianism, I'm a staunch proponent of limited government. But amongst the more heterodox libertarians, abolishment of the federal tax, dissolving the multicult/fem racketeering business, defense of private industry and personal choice, and opposition to welfare and universal healthcare, don't suffice. In this article, Spencer mentions closing Gitmo as an issue of primary importance. I can't imagine Mr. Spencer sympathizes with suspected terrorists (though Muslim apologetics are quite common amongst the libertarian commentariat); instead, Mr. Spencer likely considers this a harbinger of government imposition on our civil liberties. I understand the general argument, though for me personally, I would gladly relinquish some of my civil liberties if it means criminals, illegal immigrants, and suspected terrorists are more thoroughly investigated. Much of this rhetoric appeals to a slippery slope, paranoid argument that I simply don't foresee coming to fruition. While liberty remains an undoubtedly sacred facet of our society, we must make concessions for that freedom. I'm also wary of how this squares with immigration restriction, as many libertarians advocate open borders. Some comments from VFR:
Pure libertarianism sees the state as the first, last, and only source of evil in the world. If we as a society have a problem with a certain group (Muslims, Mexicans, blacks, etc), it's obviously the state riling them up. .

There are many writers who promulgate the idea that our government, not Islam or Mexican irredentism, is the real threat. But they're making a fundamental mistake. And our govenrment is reformable by us, difficult as that may be, whereas Islam and foreign irredentism are not under our control.
On the issue of economics, I obviously agree with many free market ideals, but I don't espouse the anarcho-capitalism envisioned by some utopic libertarians. We need public alternatives for policing, education, transportation, etc. Of course, we also need private robustness and a limited amount of regulation only where necessary, such as for issues of safety. The free market is an assuredly powerful, self-correcting method for economic vitality, but not an omnipotent one.

In my opinion, foundational and Constitutional conservative movements support limited government, but still harbor traditional American values, such as a strong military, glorification of US aggression, denunciation of Muslims and other aggressive foreigners, and little of this overly pessimistic view of government. These movements view America as a fluid democracy defined by its people, not as an ultimately doomed statist entity.

30 comments:

icr said...

I sure miss the old American People. The one that was for small standing armies, had no need for ubiquitous paramilitary SWAT teams and was 80% opposed to US entry into WW2 before Pearl Harbor. I have zero loyalty to the DC-NYC-Hollywood regime.

Richard Hoste said...

Spencer continues by alluding to a seemingly leftist concoction deemed the "Military-Industrial-Complex", perhaps a reactionary parallel to the prison-industry-complex. Here, Spencer does point to an aspect of government profligacy as we likely spend too much on defense. Though, quite simply, Hailburton and Lockheed provide a countless number of jobs

So does all government spending. If you think that's a good argument to keep spending on defense you should become a liberal on economic issues. But even then it would make more sense to advocate kinds of spending besides military, since the majority of what gets made is never used.

Second, owing to his economic reductionism, Spencer overlooks the nationalistic spirit derived from these admittedly overwrought military memes.

Yes, how great it was that "nationalistic spirit" was harnessed to support John McCain and George W. Bush!

Richard Spencer isn't a reductionist. He understands the sentimental aspect of the large aggressive military. He just believes, like I do, that the effect is bad. People think "My government is killing Ayrabs, it must still be looking out for me and my interests" and they support traitors like McCain. Energy and hatred that should be directed at those destroying the country like immigrants, blacks and liberals gets rechanneled towards third worlders going about their lives.

he military remains the only decidedly conservative and patriotic American institution, despite the left's attempts at undermining them through multicult and feminist infiltrations. Military strength and defense robustness constitute palatable representations of national strength. The pride engendered by images of fighter planes and austere Marines are integral to our national consciousness.

We're the wealthiest country in the world by far, if we want to have the toughest military too that's not a great accomplishment. Guns and bombs seem to be the worst things in the world to base national pride on. Why not freedom? Economic liberty? Civic virtue? Artistic accomplishments?

About 50-60 percent of Americans want to bomb Iran, while 21 percent of them can find the country on a map. Does that make you proud to be an American?

As for Dr. Paul and Mr. Spencer's libertarianism, I'm a staunch proponent of limited government.

Yet you believe in the simplistic "government spending causes jobs" economic formula.

I would gladly relinquish some of my civil liberties if it means criminals, illegal immigrants, and suspected terrorists are more thoroughly investigated. Much of this rhetoric appeals to a slippery slope, paranoid argument that I simply don't foresee coming to fruition.

It's paranoid to believe that the government thinks "right wing extremists" are the biggest threat in the world and will use any power to crush them? After every other Western nation in the world already has hate speech laws?

You're right. The government and the elites simply disagree with what you say-they have no interest in taking away your right to say it. Just look at the principled defense of American Renaissance's right to gather in the NYT, Washington Post and Huffington Post. And they are so different from the people who rule Canada and England. Only a paranoid madman would think that if there was a category called "terrorist" or "enemy combatant" it would eventually be applied to the racialist right!

Black Death said...

The term "military-industrial complex" was hardly a leftist concoction, although the left has probably gotten the most mileage out of it. From Wiki:

President of the United States (and former General of the Army) Dwight D. Eisenhower used the term in his Farewell Address to the Nation on January 17, 1961:
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.
In the penultimate draft of the address, Eisenhower initially used the term military-industrial-congressional complex, and thus indicated the essential role that the United States Congress plays in the propagation of the military industry. But, it is said, that the president chose to strike the word congressional in order to placate members of the legislative branch of the federal government. The actual authors of the term were Eisenhower's speech-writers Ralph E. Williams and Malcolm Moos.[3] Shortly after Eisenhower's address, the issue of military-industrial-congressional influence came to the forefront after Kennedy canceled the B-70 bomber on March 28, 1961. After appropriations bills had been passed and signed with B-70 funding that Kennedy would not use, the House Armed Services Committee (with 21 members having B-70 work in their districts) subsequently attempted to "direct" — by law — the Executive Branch to use "the full amount" appropriated for the B-70. However, a March 19, 1962 eleventh hour White House Rose Garden agreement by chairman Carl Vinson retracted the language from the appropriations bill, and the B-70 cancellation remained permanent.

....

By the way, Carl Vinson got an aircraft carrier named for him.

American said...

If he's going to bait and then switch like he's doing (politicians are better actors than Hollywood ever churned out), better he say "standing up to terrorism", not "Islam".

There are hundreds of thousands (f not more?) of upstanding, tax-paying American citizens who practice the five pillars.

And many of them are serving in the military right now, keeping you and I safe to keyboard jockey while sipping our java.

Matt said...

I'm not sure why so many people have such a negative view of Trutherism. What's the worst that could possibly come from such a movement? An investigation of the Bush administration's involvement in 9/11? Frankly, let 'em investigate it; if there's nothing there then they'll find nothing. Investigate Obama's birth certificate while you're at it. If these were regular citizens we were talking about, I would oppose intrusive investigations, but politicians should be investigated early and often.

Further, this position assumes Islam presents no imminent challenge to the West, a notion I approach with much credulity.

The issue is more that the nature of the threat posed by Islam is in no way addressed by the current paradigm. Terrorism is, after all, primarily an immigration issue rather than a defense one. If we had a proper immigration policy, then there would be no need to wage expensive wars on nations no one cares about.

Though, quite simply, Hailburton and Lockheed provide a countless number of jobs.

They do indeed. As a beneficiary of the military-industrial complex (coined by Eisenhower), I wonder how bad the unemployment rate would really be if not for all the government largesse.

While this isn't sufficient for justifying the high expenditures, it surely undermines the claim that military spending is entirely wasteful.

I agree with you here; our massive military spending has given us a ridiculously powerful military that no other country can hope to challenge for the foreseeable future. That's not insignificant given how few countries through history could claim such a thing, though many people take it for granted as though we could spend half the money and have the same result.

Inside Job said...

"I agree with you here; our massive military spending has given us a ridiculously powerful military that no other country can hope to challenge for the foreseeable future."

And yet a few airplane hi-jackers CAN?

I agree investigate Bush.

silly girl said...

"The issue is more that the nature of the threat posed by Islam is in no way addressed by the current paradigm. Terrorism is, after all, primarily an immigration issue rather than a defense one. If we had a proper immigration policy, then there would be no need to wage expensive wars on nations no one cares about."


Ditto

Whiskey said...

The Old American People got hammered a LOT: War of 1812, Barbary Coast Pirates, initial near defeat in the Mexican War, poor performance in the Spanish-American War, near catastrophic defeat by the Axis in WWII when America had 10 aircraft carriers and that was IT as far as Arms.

Bombing Iran is perfectly sensible: Iran has been making WAR on us since 1979, the invasion of our Embassy was both an act of war and our response weak and inviting of attack.

Basically anti-military people live in a fantasy world. Where rainbows, unicorns, and really big speeches by a Black guy make fundamental conflicts go away.

Our interest in the ME is keeping cheap oil flowing. Our interest in South America is overthrowing Chavez to keep ... cheap oil flowing. Our interest in Cuba is containing Castro so any mischief in South America is minimized (cheap oil flowing) and he doesn't drill "our" deep sea oil. The world and America runs on ... cheap oil. You can't strap a windmill to your Prius and run it -- the total lifetime energy cost to construct a Prius makes it more a gas guzzler than a Hummer. [Zinc is mined in Canada, sent to China, refined into batteries, sent back to the US or Japan for assembly.]

Military spending is a god-send. During depressions it soaks up masses of unemployment, far more than infrastructure spending (because of more manpower requirements). It produces more high-tech innovations (because the Private Sector can't pay for it on their own), and supports a host of technology incubators.

A strong military, particularly Navy and Air Force, allow critical force projection and deterrence of attack. Had Britain and France had 4X the militaries they had in 1935, Hitler would have been an obscure German politician, nothing more.

Militaries are like insurance or capital reserves. Expensive yet critical.

Whiskey said...

Let me add that US policy since the beginning has relied on open trade with US exports, principally agricultural, and thus a strong Navy to deter aggressive piracy. A full 25% of the Federal Budget was devoted to payoffs to the Barbary Pirates -- under Jefferson! Madison's Navy ended that tribute, and allowed the US to trade without interruption around the world.

Meanwhile, since FDR we have relied upon the US Navy to control the Gulf to keep oil cheap. Iran has made war upon us to get oil very expensive. Various adventurers like Osama and Zawahari have ambitions of creating exile armies through mass-terror against the US to topple their home regimes and make themselves ruler. As Mohammed did in Medina against Mecca in exile.

A strong military, coupled with clearly defined US responses and perception by enemies that the US WILL ACT TO UTTERLY DESTROY THEM, married with a lack of empire building, is the best way of providing security. Critical in fact given unstoppable nuclear proliferation by unstable peoples.

A nuclear Germany is no threat. Germans want to be Greater Switzerland. Nuclear Iran is a mortal threat -- they want to nuke someone to punk the US Navy out of the Gulf and push oil to $200-$300 a barrel. Russia wants this too -- their two regimes need sky-high oil exports to support themselves, so acts as Iran's supporter/protector.

Deterrence is possible. It requires a massive, big, expensive military (that also btw soaks up unemployment because the stuff has to rebuilt constantly). It also requires perception that America will ACT -- something that about forty years of passivity in the face of provocations requires BIG demonstrations.

Iraq's invasion and installation of a pro-American regime makes perfect sense -- it puts MORE OIL ON THE MARKET and provides a "land aircraft carrier" to intimidate the hell out of Iran.

America's traditional and stupid isolation is a trap: 1. The Sea is a highway for any naval power, bringing the enemy right to the US doorstep, as the British in 1812 and Nazi Submarines both proved. 2. The US depends on Agricultural exports making control of the seas vital. 3. The US depends on oil imports making not only control of the Sea vital, but control of the Gulf and South America a critical US security objective.

Trutherism is the objective equal of the German-American Bund in 1942. Or the Communist movement in 1952. It seeks to bind Americans in solidarity with Americans enemies abroad, Hitler, Stalin, and Osama bin Laden. Osama said he did it. There is mountains of proof he did it. Agreed upon by Bush's mortal political enemies. Obama says Osama did it, and hates Bush. Osama says he'll do it again, and Muslim after Muslim after Muslim have tried to and in some cases succeeded in killing Americans. While Obama copied Bush pre-9/11 passiveness and terminal PC to enable attacks.

Because PC was more important than security.

As for Israel -- Jews anywhere in the world would cause Muslims to want to kill them. The head of Hezbollah said publicly that he prefers Jews to all be in Israel -- so Muslims can kill them conveniently all at the same time. Muslim hate Jews, did before Israel existed, and kill them periodically in great pogrom spasms. Anyone familiar with Rwanda, or the Sudan, or Afghanistan would know ethnic/religious pogroms and genocide don't end if people move somewhere else. They always continue until one side is wiped out.

Whiskey said...

I also want to point out that never in the history of Humanity has disarming been smart. Disarmed people are quickly over-run by those with arms. In fact, you can never be too militarily strong. You just can't.

It is critical not to over-extend one's nation, or take on expeditions abroad when enemies are close at hand, or divide forces, or keep bad military leaders, but that is common sense.

The best way to prevent a war is to be so strong as to deter attack in the first place. Right now, America is WEAK.

North Korea creates provocations in the peninsula, because it views the US as weak, and the US confirms it by being ... weak. Iran makes provocation after provocation, killing our guys in Iraq and Afghanistan, blowing up our people with impunity, in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, and the US does nothing.

Weakness INVITES ATTACK. It begs the aggressor: go ahead, attack, we will simply collapse. You can take what you want from us because we are too weak to mount a response. Any kid in High School learns this quickly. The best way to avoid fights is to get in a few, you don't even have to win, just give a good account of yourself (better to win though). This deters future attacks.

Finally, Military spending employs mostly geeky White male engineers, and blue collar White skilled laborers. This is why Leftists hate it.

OneSTDV said...

So does all government spending. If you think that's a good argument to keep spending on defense you should become a liberal on economic issues.

Good points. i updated the post to reflect this criticism.

Energy and hatred that should be directed at those destroying the country like immigrants, blacks and liberals gets rechanneled towards third worlders going about their lives.

You're diminishing the potential impact of those "third-worlders going about their lives", especially when they want to come here. but you're setting up a false dichotomy. One can derive nationalism from military agression and understand HBD-derived problems (as I do and with the support of the AZ Law, I think most mainstream cons do as well).

Why not freedom? Economic liberty? Civic virtue? Artistic accomplishments?


Agree again. But why can't nationalistic pride come from both a strong military (I'd argue these symbols are more universal and potent) and what you describe above. And there's historical precedent for such pride coming from both sources: ancient Greece, Vikings, etc. This relates to your statement here as well:

Yes, how great it was that "nationalistic spirit" was harnessed to support John McCain and George W. Bush!

Who says your nationalistic memes (freedom, etc...) would lead to the kind of nationalistic pride you desire. I'd argue militaristic power would lead to HBD far better than the arts would.

It's paranoid to believe that the government thinks "right wing extremists" are the biggest threat in the world and will use any power to crush them? After every other Western nation in the world already has hate speech laws?

I'm willing to take that risk in order to depress crime, illegal immigration, and terrorism.

Side note: The blackballing of AmRen (a group that doesn't seem to harbor any hatred for non-whites) was disgusting.

silly girl said...

"Yes, how great it was that "nationalistic spirit" was harnessed to support John McCain and George W. Bush! "


Uh, Gore, Kerry, or Obama are somehow better?

In what universe would that be true?

No matter how bad Bush and McCain were, it could have been worse!

Drama Stage said...

Troops are not neccessary. We are so technologically advanced and our "intelligence" is so precise (due to technology) that all rougues can be taken out through covert actions alone.

This whole "military" thing is just an illusion. An expensive illusion.

Richard Hoste said...

Back in the 1910s America had healthier views on race and gender and was isolationist at the beginning of the decade. By the middle of it, Woodrow Wilson had gotten the US into WWI. In the last thirty years the US has bombed (around) a country a year and is as PC is ever.

Your seem to be arguing that if you fight wars and attack people then HBD and white nationalism are more likely to gain acceptance, or something like that. There's no reason to think that's the case. If you feel like spending 25% of the national budget to make people more conservative there are certainly more efficient ways to do it than fighting pointless wars that aren't justified in the name of white nationalism, HBD, freedom of association or anything else we like.

We have to argue military spending and interventionism on their own merits. I invite everyone to read my short case against US foreign policy.

OneSTDV said...

@ Hoste:

I'm a "white majoritist", not a WN.

Of course we have to argue military spending and inteventionism on their own terms. I mentioned a few arguments in the post and Whiskey does even better in the comments. (Note I wholeheartedly disagree with democracy building and national exporting. That was fine for European imperialism, not anymore. We only need to attack when we've been attacked or there's an evil so great and with potential for expansion that it can't be ignored.)

But there are auxiliary benefits to military spending, one of which is a foundation in conservative principles. Every society in history has derived nationalistic tendencies from their military prowess.

You bring up a good point that we're still drifting towards PC despite all the military spending, but what would happen if we stopped pushing the military memes? Who knows how far we'd be into the PC abyss.

The military is essentially the only unassailable (even leftists support the troops and offer them reverence) unabashedly conservative institution. A conservative renaissance isn't happening without the military.

Also Whiskey brings up a good point about who the military employs. Unlike other government spending that employs female paper pushers, underqualified NAMs who can't get private industry jobs, and diversity racketeers, much of whom the military employs are the backbone of the country (engineers and skilled technicians).

Richard Hoste said...

But there are auxiliary benefits to military spending, one of which is a foundation in conservative principles. Every society in history has derived nationalistic tendencies from their military prowess.

You bring up a good point that we're still drifting towards PC despite all the military spending, but what would happen if we stopped pushing the military memes? Who knows how far we'd be into the PC abyss.


Explain to me how you think this causation works. The average guy on the street see bombs dropped on Baghdad...and what? Has his mind changed on feminism and taxation? What "military memes" have pushed the country rightward? In what ways?

I could just as easily say that Joe Sixpack sees Bush killing "terrerists" and is more likely to forgive him for his open borders policy.

The military is essentially the only unassailable (even leftists support the troops and offer them reverence) unabashedly conservative institution.

Do you ever think that maybe leftist's support it because it's not as conservative as you think?

The military practices massive affirmative action, lets women serve, writes quotas for women into Middle Eastern constitutions, and will be letting gays openly serve very soon. After affirmative action doctor Nidal Hasan shot those thirteen soldiers George Casey said the tragedy would be all the worse if diversity became a casualty of the attack! Come on man, they're drinking the same Kool Aid as everyone else is. They're at best five years behind the rest of the country. And even if they were as conservative as you thought, at the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how that would make the country as a whole more conservative.

A conservative renaissance isn't happening without the military.

There's no evidence for this at all. America was both conservative and relatively isolationist up until WWII. Why do you see military spending and war as a perquisite for ending AA, cutting government, rolling back feminism, etc.? I'm just not getting what you're saying. If Pat Buchanan became president and got out of Japan, Korea and the Middle East and did everything else he advocated would that mean that this wasn'y conservatism? It sounds like you're defining conservatism as a belligerent foreign policy as the neo-cons do.

Also Whiskey brings up a good point about who the military employs. Unlike other government spending that employs female paper pushers, underqualified NAMs who can't get private industry jobs, and diversity racketeers, much of whom the military employs are the backbone of the country (engineers and skilled technicians).

In other words, it employs people who could otherwise actually be doing productive work instead of useless bums who have nothing to contribute anyway. That's not a plus.

MK said...

OT. Interesting Charles Murray article on charter schools not raising scores. Nonetheless, Murray argues the benefits are in terms of what is taught.

http://www.aei.org/article/102021

OneSTDV said...

Explain to me how you think this causation works.

It's part of the national consciousness, just like liberty, economic freedom, the American Dream, etc. are.

Main point: A strong military is part of our nation's narrative and an easily palatable indicator of our national vigor. Do you think Joe Sixpack gets goosebumps reading Fitzgerald or musing on the Founding Father's innovative governmental structure?

It's nebulous, but that doesn't mean it's unimportant (similar to religion).

Do you ever think that maybe leftist's support it because it's not as conservative as you think?

a few concessions for the PC. trivial. the military is almost entirely filled with conservatives (from the soldiers to the engineers).

Why do you see military spending and war as a perquisite for ending AA, cutting government, rolling back feminism, etc.?

who said this? i don't see it as a "prerequisite", I see it as an aid in a conservative renaissance (for the reasons i list above in this comment and in other comments).

It sounds like you're defining conservatism as a belligerent foreign policy as the neo-cons do.

dude, you read my blog, please tell me you're joking with this absurd characterization. a strong military, as has been the case throughout all of history, indicates strong nationalism. it's PART of conservatism, not the entire definition.

In other words, it employs people who could otherwise actually be doing productive work instead of useless bums who have nothing to contribute anyway. That's not a plus.

essentially every single new technology that civilians use was initially funded by the military (ever heard of the computer?). i guess we should push all those engineers into finance instead, right? and again, it helps engender the pride i've pointed to before.

Support Bra said...

I don't support the troops because I think they are fools to volunteer for a war I don't support.

On the otherhand, we know that many of them come from impoverished backgrounds and are told at recruitment seminars that they most likely WILL NOT be deployed to war AND they will get stuff like their education paid for, etc, so I really can't blame somebody if they are poor and trying to make a living.

But the ones who AIN'T poor and have options?

Naw, can't support 'em.

But I wouldn't spit on 'em or anything. I was raised right.

Evil Neocon Testing99 said...

Whiskey

The Old American People got hammered a LOT: ..., Barbary Coast Pirates, initial near defeat in the Mexican War, poor performance in the Spanish-American War, near catastrophic defeat by the Axis in WWII.


Does Whiskey think no one knows history here? He has zero credibility because he deliberately and repeatedly spins such unabashed fabrications:

Spanish-American War:
the ten-week war was fought in both the Caribbean and the Pacific and was notable for a series of one-sided American naval and military victories

Mexican-American War
What stupid people they are! They can do nothing and their continued defeats should convince them of it. They have lost six great battles; we have captured six hundred and eight cannon, nearly one hundred thousand stands of arms, made twenty thousand prisoners, have the greatest portion of their country and are fast advancing on their Capital which must be ours,—yet they refuse to treat [ie negotiate terms]

The idea that the Axis almost won WWII is pure fantasy. Against the world's largest economy (US), world's largest (pop & land) modern country (USSR), and world's largest empire/navy (UK) both Japan and Germany only hope was to quickly force a surrend of 1 or more major Allied powers which they came nowhere near accomplishing.

Richard Hoste said...

who said this? i don't see it as a "prerequisite", I see it as an aid in a conservative renaissance (for the reasons i list above in this comment and in other comments).

When you said "A conservative renaissance isn't happening without the military" I interpreted it as "We need a lot of military spending for conservatism to make headway." Or did you mean that we'll need the men in the military to do it? If that's the case, they're not doing much good for conservatism in Germany, Korea, Afghanistan and Iraq.

essentially every single new technology that civilians use was initially funded by the military (ever heard of the computer?). i guess we should push all those engineers into finance instead, right? and again, it helps engender the pride i've pointed to before.


Once again, you're asking we do something in a ridiculously indirect way. If you believe in government funding for technological research, just like you previously said you favored government spending to create jobs, then advocate that the government directly spend money to create jobs or try to invent technology instead of praising these things as byproducts of attempts to do something else. It's like if my goal was for you to have golf clubs and instead of buying you gulf clubs I give you a job and hope that you use your increased wealth to buy them.

OneSTDV said...

Once again, you're asking we do something in a ridiculously indirect way.

your analogy ignores the military's impact in totality. you can't just look at it as an economic venture. it's utility is dependent on all of these: invigorating nationalism, keeping us safe, technological development, employing tons of people, being a beacon of conservatism, etc.

Anonymous said...

"America was both conservative and relatively isolationist up until WWII."

You are forgetting Manifest Destiny, the Monroe Doctrine, the American Indian Wars, The Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, the Philippine-American War, the Banana Wars, US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion, etc.

Richard Hoste said...

your analogy ignores the military's impact in totality. you can't just look at it as an economic venture. it's utility is dependent on all of these: invigorating nationalism, keeping us safe, technological development, employing tons of people, being a beacon of conservatism, etc.

Anything that's 25% of the national budget is going to have all kinds of peripheral advantages. It's impossible to spend that much money and not have something good come out of it. But every indirect result that you see here could be aimed for through direct means if you think it's government's job to do these things.

Invigorating nationalism-Making nationalistic propaganda, ending anti-white indoctrination

"Keeping us safe"-Border security, which doesn't have the cost of making a new enemy for every one you kill

Technological development-directly funding technological development instead of accidently coming across ways to help people in the process of learning better ways to kill people

Employing tons of people-Any other kind of government spending.

"Being a beacon of conservatism"-Funding conservative organizations

You get the point. The way to justify government program X isn't by saying that it indirectly does things it doesn't mean to do (which can be done using the same money directly instead, if you think they're worthy state goals) or that it does thing that all government spending does (create jobs).

Richard Hoste said...

To elaborate on the point that I can argue for indirect benefits from any major government program, let's take a massive public works project. It would

1) Create jobs, and these jobs would go to men, which is good from an anti-feminist perspective.

2) Research into civil engineering could lead to new technological breakthroughs.

3) Crime rate would drop since the jobs would disproportionately go to poor young men, the most criminal element of society

4) The birth rate would go up as more taxes would be taken from everybody to pay for jobs that are disproportionately male. More young men could support families.

You get the idea. What did I ignore? Whether we actually need the buildings, bridges, etc. Public works need to be defended on that basis! If I want to fight crime, increase the birth rate, etc. I should advocate programs specifically designed to do those things.

To argue that we should spend billions on a gigantic military without actually asking whether there's really a military threat out there, but instead talking about indirect benefits from the spending is the same thing which I did above.

duawbcwwwak said...

"But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. Of these, I mention two
only.

...we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex.
...
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we
must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could
itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite."

-- The farewell speech of U.S.A. President, Dwight Eisenhower. Given on 17 January 1961

OneSTDV said...

@ Hoste:

All those positive benefits you cite in (nationalism, conservatism, pride, crime rate, employment, keeping us safe, technology) are best achieved by the military because:

Joe Sixpack gets off on fighter planes, killing bad guys, and aggressive strength, not high literature, Constitutional law, and talks at the Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute.

I'll go back to something I shied away from earlier: I do think a strong military is almost a prerequisite for a nation with a strong nationalistic sentiment.

But I guess we'll agree to disagree. This guy agrees with both of us (hates war, but reiterates one of my points):

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/05/24/wars

Worse, many who cheer for our wars enjoy that most intoxicating and distorting reward: cost-free benefits, in the form of vicarious feelings of strength, purpose, nobility and the like

Plus, I think you underestimate the threat.

But I don't really have anything else to say. We disagree, simple as that. I honestly think you have a good argument, but in the end, I don't agree with it and I think history sides with me as well (nationalism and technological innovation only occur in countries with strong and victorious militaries).

Richard Hoste said...

I just have to point out the wealthiest country in the world not infected with political correctness or third world immigration is Japan, which has pacifism written into its constitution.

K(yle) said...

Japan has a powerful military. Ours. The country has been pacific (this pun was unavoidable) since the end of the war. Before that Japanese culture was in no way peaceful, or peace seeking.

Germany likewise despite having a military deployed in Afghanistan is forbidden from actually engaging in combat by their government.


Shocking. Germany and Japan. If you want a US like this your best, shortest path to that effect would be to start WW3, lose to say...China, and pray for magnanimity in letting us keep our country, so long as we promised to not act to 'uppity' in the near future.

Richard Hoste said...

Japan has a powerful military. Ours. The country has been pacific (this pun was unavoidable) since the end of the war. Before that Japanese culture was in no way peaceful, or peace seeking.

So what? He said that a strong military was a perquisite for nationalism, not that a strong military OR being defended by a strong military is a prerequisite for nationalism.