Confuses Necessity and Sufficiency: This is the primary problem with Shenk's argumentation strategy. Any high scoring LSAT student is assuredly familiar with the logical distinction between these two notions. For a given principle to apply, there are necessary conditions, those which must be achieved but may be achieved despite failure of the larger objective, and sufficient conditions, those that guarantee satisfaction of the given principle.
In this Bloggingheads conversation with Will Wilkinson, Shenk makes this rather elementary error, asserting that work ethic isn't merely a necessary condition but a sufficient one:
Everyone in the NBA is an extraordinary athlete and has spent years and years working their butts off and has worked very very hard and has all the qualities that you just stated. But Michael Jordan did stand above them in not just in his ability, but in all of these ingredients that we look at. We know that his drive and his ambition, we look at how he got to be where he is, it's just documented...So there is a difference in the quality of how people practice.OK, so Jordan practiced really hard. That doesn't undermine the notion that a basic component of success is genetic (Wilkinson gives the fantastic example of Michael Phelps' body dimensions). It's pretty simple: Independently, hard work and proper genetics are necessary but not sufficient conditions for the highest levels of achievement. This anecdote brings me to my next point:
Using Anecdote and non-Quantitative Studies: In the Bloggingheads interview and in these two essays (WSJ and The Atlantic), Shenk employs what one could appropriately deem the "Gladwell strategy". His arguments are primarily buttressed by personal anecdote, individual instances, and a noticeable lack of quantitative corroboration. For example, take his comments on Michael Jordan whereby he appeals to this book from David Halberstam. Let's just assume this secondary source offers a reasonably accurate representation of Jordan's pugnacity. Yes Jordan's work ethic was legendary, but where are the books detailing the lives of Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley, and Karl Malone/John Stockton (the last pair of whom had an almost telepathic connection on the court - lots of practice perhaps?). We have absolutely no means by which to quantify Jordan's work ethic and appropriately compare it to a control group or cohort of individuals achieving a reasonably close measure of success.
In The Atlantic article where Shenk broaches cognitive ability, he points to a number of studies yet provides not one number allowing readers to gauge the practical implications. He discusses a study attempting to connect amount of verbal exercise during early childhood to adulthood intelligence:
Head Start wasn't getting hold of kids early enough. Somehow, poor kids were getting stuck in an intellectual rut long before they got to the program-- before they turned three and four years old. They devised a novel (and exhaustive) methodology: for more than three years, they sampled the actual number of words spoken to young children from forty- two families at three different socioeconomic levels: (1) welfare homes, (2) working-class homes, and (3) professionals' homes. Then they tallied them up.Of course, Shenk provides no actual data
Children in professionals' homes were exposed to an average of more than fifteen hundred more spoken words per hour than children in welfare homes. Over one year, that amounted to a difference of nearly 8 million words, which, by age four, amounted to a total gap of 32 million words. They also found a substantial gap in tone and in the complexity of words being used. As they crunched the numbers, they discovered a direct correlation between the intensity of these early verbal experiences and later achievement.
from the study. Contrastingly, Charles Murray provides data from a US study that controlled for home environment (middle class) and found that some underlying factor distinguishing siblings (genetics?) had a substantial effect on adulthood achievement.Each pair consists of one sibling with an IQ in the normal range of 90-110 ,a range that includes 50% of the population. I will call this group the normals. The second sibling in each pair had an IQ either higher than 110, putting him in the top quartile of intelligence (the bright) or lower than 90, putting him in the bottom quartile (the dull). These constraints produced a sample of 710 pairs. In 1993, when we took our most recent look at them, members of the sample were aged 28-36. That year, the bright siblings earned almost double the average of the dull: £22,400 compared to £11,800. The normals were in the middle, averaging £16,800.Additionally, Shenk never actually quantifies the magnitude of improvement. He uses ambigious phrases like" positive influence", "importance of", and "growth mindset", but never distinguishes between minimal mutability such as passing algebra and gross malleability such as getting a physics PhD. The former of which has little implications beyond personal appeasement and confirming erudite theories of educational philosophy. (In Real Education, Murray alludes to studies where intense academic intervention engendered about a 5% gain in test scores). Then when Shenk does provide an appeal to specific data, he forgets to qualify his optimism through a modicum of critical thinking.
The same dynamic applies to talent. Something crazy happened to the world's violinists in the 20th century: they got better faster than their peers had in previous centuries. We know this because we have lasting benchmarks, like the effervescent Paganini Violin Concerto No. 1 and the concluding movement of the Bach Violin Partita No. 2 in D Minor—14 minutes of virtually impossible violin work. Both pieces were considered nearly unplayable in the 18th century but are now played routinely and well by a large number of violin students. (The Bach is now routinely included in the repertoires of music schools and competitions).Does he consider that perhaps, with expedited travel and the spreading of classical music throughout the civilized world, there are simply more people playing violin? Let's say in the 18th century, only 100 people in the entire world played violin seriously. If only 1% (and thus 1 person) of the violin-playing population had the genetic gifts to master such an arduous task, then yes, one could justifiably conclude this piece was virtually impossible. But 200 years later, let's say 10,000 people play violin seriously. Now there are 100 who can play and thus it would seem to be relatively routine. And remember, the repertoires of music schools and competitions, especially in the highly competitive suburbs, are for the best of the best.
As for the supposed increased talent of our runners and tennis players, on the scale of human ability (from the fat kid in 4th grade huffing his way after one lap to Usain Bolt), the improvements gained through fastidious study of experts are picayune.
Attacks Genetic Determinism Strawman: As with most blank slatists, Shenk argues against a concocted framing of the hereditarian argument. By showing environment and work ethic are important factors in achievement, Shenk believes he undermines the genetic argument.
That's because genes interact with their surroundings, getting turned on and off all the time and, even more amazingly, saying different things depending on whom they are talking to. "There are no genetic factors that can be studied independently of the environment," explains McGill University's Michael Meaney, in his article "Nature, Nurture, and the Disunity of Knowledge." "And there are no environmental factors that function independently of the genome. [A trait] emerges only from the interaction of gene and environment."Let me repeat this rather obvious point: No sane person asserts that genetic predilections define a rigid trajectory of one's successes and failures. As stated above, merely illustrating the influence of environment does not invalidate the hereditarian viewpoint. My conception of the nature/nurture dichomoty is that genes define a reasonable interval for one's potential achievement. Then, environment and work ethic, amongst other non-biological factors, pinpoint one's position on that interval. This squares much better with the available evidence than Shenk's specious claims.
I've skimmed over a number of other interviews and articles. Shenk basically keeps repeating the assertion that the genetic hypothesis is an antiquated myth promulgated by the likes of Francis Galton. He rarely provides actual scientific support besides referencing some intrepid group of "scientists" or innovative rat studies! He also quite predictably engages in standard IQ denialism deriding the Bell Curve and positively citing Robert Sternberg's drivel. I don't feel like regurgitating these easy arguments countering this romanticism.
Finally, if intelligence is a pliable attribute, then surely our decades of educational reform would have spurred a mild improvement in academic achievement. We must have hit something right in the last forty years. If so, please explain the chart above. What we really need is a "Skinner Box" experiment on a bunch of kids. But I doubt that will happen any time soon.
[If you have any other studies that show stability in human traits, cognitive, physical, or otherwise, please include them in the comments and I will add them to the post.]
76 comments:
***
[If you have any other studies that show stability in human traits, cognitive, physical, or otherwise, please include them in the comments and I will add them to the post.]***
I wonder if Shenk mentioned this study by Paul Thompson on myelination integrity. Note that Thompson makes the common sense point, that just as average and geneticaly gifted runner can benefit from training (although Shenk would probably want to downplay the genetically gifted part).
"The UCLA researchers took the study a step further by comparing the white matter architecture of identical twins, who share almost all their DNA, and fraternal twins, who share only half. Results showed that the quality of the white matter is highly genetically determined, although the influence of genetics varies by brain area. According to the findings, about 85 percent of the variation in white matter in the parietal lobe, which is involved in mathematics, logic, and visual-spatial skills, can be attributed to genetics. But only about 45 percent of the variation in the temporal lobe, which plays a central role in learning and memory, appears to be inherited.
Thompson and his collaborators also analyzed the twins' DNA, and they are now looking for specific genetic variations that are linked to the quality of the brain's white matter. The researchers have already found a candidate--the gene for a protein called BDNF, which promotes cell growth. "People with one variation have more intact fibers," says Thompson.
The search for the genetic and neuroanatomical basis of intelligence has been controversial, largely because opponents fear it will spawn a deterministic view of abilities and education. "People worry that if something is genetic, they have no power to influence it," says Thompson. "But that's not true at all." For example, both an average runner and a genetically gifted one can benefit from training."
http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/22333/
Frank Sulloway also provides a mature comment on the role of nature via nurture:
"In sum, for twins, heritability estimates for IQ appear to be between .50 and .70, depending on the particular method by which IQ is calculated, the age of the study participants, and measurement error. The possible confounding influences mentioned by Professor Kaplan appear to make almost no difference in any of these findings. This general conclusion does not mean that environmental influences on IQ are unimportant. On the contrary, abundant evidence has shown that family environments make a substantial contribution to intelligence, especially before children reach adulthood and especially in impoverished environments that do not allow for the full development of genetic predispositions.[4] The increasingly evident portrait of human development that has emerged from these twin studies is one of nature via nurture, as people growing up are drawn to environments that provide the best outlets for their inborn dispositions and abilities."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19985
Also, see Sulloway's discussion of the influence of pre-natal environments.
"In conclusion, while Professor Agin is absolutely correct to assert that fetal environments are potentially important for understanding heritability, his claim that "the controversy about the inheritance of intelligence is really vacuous" fails to take into account the results of the many twin studies on the subject. This accumulated evidence strongly suggests that the heritability of IQ is somewhere between a low estimate of about .48, provided by Devlin et al.'s impressive but nevertheless still inconclusive meta-analysis, and the more usual estimates of .60–.70 derived from classic twin methods. It is testimony to the remarkable progress of research that the question of prenatal influences on IQ can be narrowed down to a debate over 20 percent, and probably much less, of the overall variance."
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20731
This is absolutely hilarious. You're posting what you assume to be a thorough refutation of my book without having read the book. To top it off, you start with a nice piece of knowing slander. I am not a blank slatist, and since it appears you read the WSJ piece you know that I explicitly separate myself from Blank Slatism.
My book does not argue against strong genetic influences. In fact, it explicitly acknowledges them -- including advantages and disadvantages. It also seeks to distinguish what we know about those genetic influences from the question of individual potential.
- David Shenk
@dshenk
This is absolutely hilarious. You're posting what you assume to be a thorough refutation of my book without having read the book.
Given the liberties you took on "The Bell Curve", I would say this is an example of the pot calling the kettle black.
From the Amazon page on your book:
Question: How do these new findings affect the concept of the "The Bell Curve"--that we live in an increasingly stratified world where the "cognitive elite," those with the best genes, are more and more isolated from the cognitive/genetic underclass? Is that idea now completely obsolete?
David Shenk: Yes, it is obsolete. The idea that there is a genetic super-class that has a corner on high-IQ genes is nonsense. This comes out of a profound misunderstanding of how genes work and how intelligence works, and also from a misreading of so-called "heritability" studies. I am not saying that genes don’t affect intelligence. Genes affect everything. But by and large I think the evidence shows that people with low intelligence are missing out on key developmental advantages.
Exactly what assertion made in The Bell Curve did you prove to be wrong?
"But by and large I think the evidence shows that people with low intelligence are missing out on key developmental advantages."
No, it doesn't.
I spent three years working to articulate my understanding of the science, and vetting that with scientists I trust, and that's my book. We'll be happy to send you a review copy. If you care to take the time to actually read my work and respond to it, I'll try to find some time to respond to your criticisms.
I've seen the "go read a book" argument proffered in lieu of actual argument many times, but never by the author of the book himself.
You've written a book which asserts that "Everything You’ve Been Told About Genetics, Talent, and IQ is Wrong", but can't be bothered to site an example? From the summary of your book, all I see you saying is "working hard and practice will make you better", and "genes are complex".
Neither claim is exactly earth shattering. I'm very interested in reading your book if there is something to it. Could you offer something a bit more concrete?
"It also seeks to distinguish what we know about those genetic influences from the question of individual potential."
What study has ever shown there is a "Genius in All of Us"?
None.
The very title of your book is a lie.
I spent three years working to articulate my understanding of the science, and vetting that with scientists I trust
Translation: I am highly prone to confirmation bias and only talked to scientists who were already sympathetic to my own liberal creationist viewpoint - that which posits evolution stopped at the neck.
Shenk tells a profoundly optimistic story. The bottom line is that all people can do better by working harder, which is a message that is both morally and politically and socially appealing. It's also -- and this is Shenk's main point -- scientifically demonstrable.
I haven't read the book but if this review quote (from amazon) is correct then that is all I need to know to avoid wasting time on this book
It is a fact that you can ruin a genius kid by putting him into outright hostile development environment (us public schools :) ). it is a fact - the real life maugli examples (where kids are basically retarded if they are raised by animals, as they fail to develop the necessary neural patterns for language development which is
irreversible past certain age)
This though does not prove that you can turn any 60 IQ retard into a nobel prize winner if you put him into right environment. there been plenty of adoption and other studies proving this
No environment will compensate for genetics. If you dont have genetics to be in top 1% - you will never be. You can teach a "Dull Normal " (80-90 iq) to read and count change but he will never be able to do anything requiring brain power (physics ,math, CS , heck - even fire fighting as recent lawsuits show )
We dont need any more "normal and average people" we have over 6 billion of them.
heck we have more than enough of genius level people ( top 0.1 % ) that we could safely truncate the the rest (99.9% ) and still have enough to maintain an industrial society
The dumber part the bell curve wastes resources using technologies produced by this top 0.1% and their only "contribution" is environmental waste and more of their worthless selfs
Max, you're my hero. I may just start being more overtly pro-eugenics.
Well that is pretty cool that Shenk decided to respond (twice!).
But of course he goes with, "read my book!"
Shenk makes the same mistakes in every single article and interview (I read or listened to around 5 of them). He summarized his perspective pretty well and offered what he probably considered reasonable evidence.
I think that's enoiugh to formulate a counterargument. I guess I shouldn't have included "I haven't read the book" and he wouldn't have to be able to use that as an excuse to shirk my criticism.
And I love how he contends he's not a blank slatist. No of course not. It's just that his position is indistinguishable from it.
Oh, also note that Shenk engages in a rather obvious contradiction. He outrightly admits that Head Start is a waste because it intervenes too late.
Then claims that intense intervention (presumably in the cognitive realm) can significantly improve someone's ability.
But, according to Shenk's own admission, any intervention beyond the age of 2 or 3 wold be useless.
Shenk is a prime example of Sailer's observation that PC makes people stupid. He went to Brown BTW. Shocking.
@onestdv
And I love how he contends he's not a blank slatist. No of course not. It's just that his position is indistinguishable from it.
I have to say I'm not sure what his position really is. The title makes absurd claims, and he seems to want to give the impression of writing a very controversial book. I suspect if one were to read the book very carefully, it wouldn't actually disagree either with the key points of The Bell Curve, or with mainstream HBD thought.
So when challenged he falls back on "read the book", knowing that this will force you to argue against trying your best, looking both ways before crossing the street, always wearing clean underwear, etc.
It doesn't matter what the book says. You have to read it before dismissing it if you want to be taken seriously.
Shenk seems to be trying out his best pre-2008 Obama with this book. That is, speak out of both sides of your mouth and let people project their own beliefs, biases and hopes onto him with the inestable aid of a gullible and biased media.
For example:
Question: Your book is called The Genius in All of Us: Why Everything You’ve Been Told About Genetics, Talent, and IQ is Wrong. That’s a big claim. Everything and how so?
David Shenk: It is a bold statement, and it reflects how poorly the public has been served when it comes to understanding the relationship between biology and ability. The clichés we’ve been taught about genetic blueprints, IQ, and "giftedness" all come out of crude, early-20th century guesswork. The reality is so much more interesting and complex. Genes do have a powerful influence on everything we do, but they respond to their environments in all sorts of interesting ways. We’ve now learned a lot more about the developmental mechanisms that enable people to get really good at stuff. Intelligence and talent turn out to be about process, not about whether you were born with certain "gifts."
So in the space of a single paragraph answer, Shenk directly contradicts himself.
Why would anyone have to read the man's book when he advertises in every promo for it that he's either intentionally duplicitious or too dim to recognize his own logical inconsistencies and misunderstandings of the subject.
@FeministX
It doesn't matter what the book says. You have to read it before dismissing it if you want to be taken seriously.
OneSTDV offered a thoughtful critique of the author's interviews and essays on the core thesis of the book. Moreover, the author appeared and wasn't able to articulate what important part of his argument was being misrepresented.
This is a group which is above all unimpressed with credentials. One could author dozens of books and earn multiple PHDs, but if they can't formulate a coherent response to criticism they won't be taken seriously here.
All these problems come from having a multi-racial society. The planet wasn't setup that way. It's a creation of Man. There's nothing Holy about it. Just undo it. It's that simple.
White people need to admit that they are not God. They can't fix everything. Whites have been trying to fix the Black people for 50-60 years now. How about White people finally admit "We don't know how to fix the Black people".
My personal view: I am sick of this. Why am I stuck with this mess ? A few hundred years ago, somebody setup an Ag empire based on forced labor in the far corner of the North American continent. Why do I now in the 21st Century have to deal with the leavings of this mess THAT I DIDN'T MAKE AND DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH !!!
My view: Stuff it all. Let Jose handle it. He wants this turkey ? He can have it.
"It doesn't matter what the book says. You have to read it before dismissing it if you want to be taken seriously."
If the author wants to be taken seriously, he should do a better job of promoting the book. Eye-rolling hype and strawman destruction aren't a good way to go about it.
If the author wants to be taken seriously, he should do a better job of promoting the book. Eye-rolling hype and strawman destruction aren't a good way to go about it.
Well, it seems to work just fine for Gladwell....
Max wrote:
"The dumber part the bell curve wastes resources using technologies produced by this top 0.1% and their only "contribution" is environmental waste and more of their worthless selfs'
------------------------
Why so mean spirited? IQ isn't the entire sum of a person. There are other important traits such as kindness and industriousness.
I can see how associating with IQ deniers (who think IQ is meaningless) would cause people to swing the other way. But keep things in perspective. Remember the Uni-bomber has a very high IQ.
Surely there are useful jobs for people of every ability.
The thing that worries me most about certain groups of people isn't so much their IQ, but their apparent tendency to violence and aggression.
I think it would be alright if a certain race had a lower IQ on average if only they didn't tend towards criminality, and provided there are lots of people of other races around to keep the lights on, so to speak. I suppose it could get bad if the dumber race became a majority and took power.
But look at China. Ok, they are much better off then Africa. But having higher average IQ's than Europeans doesn't seem to have provided that much benefit. They live under a corrupt and oppressive government. The country in general is corrupt. Check out the Corruption Perception Index at Transparency.org.
Mind you, I certainly don't agree with Shenk. For one thing, I have 4 grown children, and I know they were all born with different personalities, abilities and interests. In areas such as music and mathematics we are born with a certain measure of talent. A person without much math talent might be able to make it through high school and first-year college math by working hard, but there are also some who cannot make it that far no matter how hard they try. And once you get into upper level math, where proofs and logic are important, many more people get weeded out. Many people simply can't do it no matter how hard they try. I'm a math teacher and I have seen this many times.
I suspect music is the same way. For example, I can't sing. I can't hit the notes accurately. At one point in my life I spent a lot of time trying to be able to sing on key. But I just can't do it.
Fifty of civil rights and school integration haven't closed "the gap". That is pretty powerful evidence that nothing will ever close it. You should just stop collecting data on race and tell everyone to do their best. And stop exporting all the low-IQ jobs overseas.
From the excerpt here, Mr Shenk uncritically accepts Robert Sternberg's practical intelligence model. Linda Gottfredson has shown this doesn't stand up to scrutiny though.
"Robert Sternberg watched studies like these pile up-- documenting the unusual, sometimes even untestable intelligence traits of Yup'ik Eskimo children, !Kung San hunters of the Kalahari Desert, Brazilian street youth,American horse handicappers, and Californian grocery shoppers-- he realized that the lack of correlation between their expertise and IQ scores demanded nothing less than a whole new definition of intelligence."
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2010/03/the-32-million-word-gap/36856/
"4.1. Herbal knowledge among Kenyan children
Contrary to what Sternberg implies, this study did not measure skills or knowledge that
actually enhance health, but only beliefs about illness and herbal treatments that are widely
held in the rural village studied. For example, one of the answers scored as correct on the
inventory was to agree that the ‘‘evil eye’’ is a likely cause of a baby’s crying and
stomachache. Herbal knowledge scores correlated negatively not only with several tests of
IQ and achievement, but also with parents’ social class. We might expect a belief in myths,
superstitions, and other questionable folk ‘‘knowledge’’ to correlate negatively with both IQ
and social class in the United States too, but that could hardly be said to dissipate the positive
manifold of cognitive tests. Only a bona fide ability test could do that, and nothing suggests
that adhering to folk beliefs about illness in a society undergoing modernization reflects a
form of mental competence."
http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2003onSternberg.pdf
"To preview my conclusions, Sternberg et al. (2000) fail to support their assertion that
practical intelligence is not only distinct from academic intelligence ( g) but also equals or exceeds g in its ability to predict everyday success. Sternberg et al. can support their two major theoretical propositions only by ignoring the most relevant evidence on g and making
implausible claims about practical intelligence. As for their six empirical claims, none is
supported by the evidence they offer. When their evidence is retrieved and examined closely,
it actually contradicts two of the claims (empirical claims 1 and 3), illustrates the operation of
g and not any new ‘‘practical intelligence’’ (claim 2), supports the claim only when interpreted
in a heads-I-win-tails-you-lose manner (claim 4), fails even to address the claim
(claim 5), and is seen to be greatly overstated for practical intelligence while systematically
understated for g (claim 6)."
Gottfredson, L. S. (2003). Dissecting practical intelligence theory: Its claims and evidence. Intelligence, 31(4), 343-397.
http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2003dissecting.pdf
Former Edinburgh University Prof Chris Brand's comment:
"GENIUS IS AN INTERACTION EFFECT
Popular American author, filmmaker and Atlantic correspondent David Shenk took it upon himself to try to rubbish the grand old straw man that genius is ‘100% inherited’ ("The Genius in All of Us: Why Everything You've Been Told About Genetics, Talent, and IQ Is Wrong" – see Salon, 7 iii) – only to come to the conclusion that G x E interaction was at work, as fully allowed in Chapter 3 of The g Factor. (In particular, geniuses often practice singularly hard, since their native gifts make practice so rewarding, even from the earliest ages.)"
http://gfactor.blogspot.com/
Why so mean spirited?
Cynicism is an idealism shaped by reality
IQ isn't the entire sum of a person. There are other important traits such as kindness and industriousness.
Why kindness is important? Really give me a good answer. Drive and aggression combined with IQ produces conquerors and nation builders ( think Napoleon,Alexander the great, Julius Cesar ). Industriousness + very high IQ gives us Von Neumann, Einstein, Oppenheimer. Or Bill Gates and Buffet in case of slightly lower IQ and enormous love for capital
Stellar high iq+ nothing else?- William James Sidis.
Not every genius produces significant or even plain meaningful contribution , but they have the potential, "average" people simply lack the capacity
Remember the Uni-bomber has a very high IQ.
And so was Lenin (the person who started the process of demise and decline of my country)
My argument is if you take top 1% IQ wise, not all of those people would be equally useful and contributing. But all of them would have the potential at least. And with current population there is 60+ million of capable people, that is more than entire population of 18th century Europe
If you take the "average" - NONE of them will contribute anything at all, no matter how hard you try (unless they by virtue of chance produce offspring smarter than themselves but that is horrible inefficient approach)
Surely there are useful jobs for people of every ability.
Jobs? maybe (current economy doesnt agree btw), Useful? - no way. Average person produces absolutely NOTHING USEFUL. A cog in short-sighted consumerists machine aimed solely at resource destruction and pollution on industrial scale . Driven only by minutae and most basic and primitive instincts of self gratification, procreation and status seeking
But look at China. Ok, they are much better off then Africa. But having higher average IQ's than Europeans doesn't seem to have provided that much benefit. They live under a corrupt and oppressive government. The country in general is corrupt. Check out the Corruption Perception Index at Transparency.org.
100 or 105 IQ is not good enough. 130 is bare minimum when you can have intelligent policies based on fact and logic and with optimization and improvement in mind.
Is china better than africa? Certainly. And in possibly in future geopolitical situation they might far better than EU populated with lower IQ immigrants.
Do I view them as an ideal society?- No way.
Good society has to strive to improve itself. Current society is aimed at self destruction trough dysgenics
You can read the first chapter of Shenk's book here:
http://parmenides.wnyc.org/media/resources/2010/Mar/05/ShenkChapter1.pdf
"Jobs? maybe (current economy doesnt agree btw), Useful? - no way. Average person produces absolutely NOTHING USEFUL. A cog in short-sighted consumerists machine aimed solely at resource destruction and pollution on industrial scale . Driven only by minutae and most basic and primitive instincts of self gratification, procreation and status seeking"
Useful for whom? You sound like you're implying some set of values the world should abide by. Do all 130+ IQ people agree with your values? Wanna bet on that?
At this point anyway, a lot of 100 IQ people are guaranteeing the safety and security of a lot of 130 IQ people. Short of some sort of advanced military technology, that's the way it's going to remain for the foreseeable future.
[quote]
Useful for whom? You sound like you're implying some set of values the world should abide by. Do all 130+ IQ people agree with your values? Wanna bet on that?
[/quote]
yeah I wanna bet that all 130+ IQ people wont agree with my values.
[quote]
At this point anyway, a lot of 100 IQ people are guaranteeing the safety and security of a lot of 130 IQ people.
[/quote]
Absence of anyone lower than 130 IQ would be much better security
[quote]
Short of some sort of advanced military technology, that's the way it's going to remain for the foreseeable future.
[/quote]
That is a question of how far in the future you can see.
"This is a group which is above all unimpressed with credentials. One could author dozens of books and earn multiple PHDs, but if they can't formulate a coherent response to criticism they won't be taken seriously here."
Egads! Won't be taken seriously on the secret racist blog? How could one go on?
As my dad would tell me, the mountain won't come to even you, princess. If you want your HBD thing to go mainstream, I'm afraid you are going to have to actually read books before dismissing their arguments. And I have no way of knowing that Shenk's book is based on faulty logic when I'm reading a review by someone who admits to having never read the data or arguments in the book.
Anybody feel like responding to his first chapter? I'll link to your comment in the main post. I'm tired out from this post.
He sure likes using animal examples. Is he aware that animals aren't human?
The only worthwhile example he uses are on Japanese vs. Japanese-American children. (I imagine this is the "Eyferth study" of height.) But as in the rats study, no one is arguing that an incredibly restrictive environment doesn't dampen development. After all, if a truck is strapped to my back and to the back of Usain Bolt, I'm sure we'd finish about equal in a 100 m dash. He also doesn't prove that an incredibly enriching environment can spur "genius" (I pointed out the obvious fallacies in his violin and sprinting examples, i.e. more people and relative degree, respectively).
He's really presenting a waffling thesis here. Basically he keeps saying:
"Genes are important. But not that important. Well it's all environment. Here's some rats. But remember genes do limit some people. But you can become a "genius" anyway if you try hard enough. And now some grasshoppers. And one (likely flawed) study of people."
He obviously want to have it both ways.
@FeministX
Egads! Won't be taken seriously on the secret racist blog? How could one go on?
Perhaps he could go into hiding. Do you have room for him on your blog?
David Shenk appears to have misrepresented Herrnstein & Murray's position in The Bell Curve'. Shenk reports:
"Genes can be scary stuff if you don’t understand them. In 1994, psychologist Richard Herrnstein and policy analyst Charles Murray warned in their bestselling book The Bell Curve that we live in an increasingly stratified world
where the “cognitive elite”—those with the best genes—are more and more isolated _om the cognitive/genetic underclass. “Genetic partitioning,” they called it. there was no mistaking their message:
**ie irony is that as America equalizes the [environmental] circumstances of people’s lives, the remaining differences in intelligence are increasingly determined by differences in genes . . . Putting it all together, success and failure in the American economy, and all that
goes with it, are increasingly a macer of the genes that people inherit.**
Stark and terrifying—and thankfully quite mistaken. ie authors had fundamentally misinterpreted a number of studies, becoming convinced that roughly 60 percent of each person’s intelligence comes directly from his or her
genes."
In relation to the 60% figure, Murray and Herrnstein were referring to heritability. That is, the proportion of variance in a trait which is attributable to genetic variation in a defined population.
And it turns out, Herrnstein & Murray's estimate stacks up pretty well in light of the most recent behavioural genetic studies (see Plomin's recent study below).
So Herrnstein & Murray's basic point about stratification seems correct. Greg Clark gives an interesting example here in relation to height.
"If McCloskey was
right farmyard animals would all be at their medieval sizes still, and instead of the wonderful modern
extravagance of dog breeds all dogs would have the characteristics of wolves and would make bad house pets.
As a further reduction as absurdum man would never have evolved from apes in the first place....
The reason is that if we take a population that varies on some characteristic, such as height,
and eliminate the bottom 10 percent of the height distribution in one generation then we will for all time change the average height of that population. This is because we have changed the average
underlying average genotype of the population."
A Response to Critics (European Review of Economic History, August, 2008)
http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/Farewell%20to%20Alms/EREH%20response%20-%20revised.pdf
Also, see Plomin et al, Molecular Psychiatry (2009), 1–9.
"The heritability of general cognitive ability increases significantly and linearly from 41%in childhood (9 years) to 55% in adolescence (12 years) and to 66% in young adulthood (17 years) in a sample of 11 000 pairs of twins from four countries, a larger sample than all previous studies combined.
In addition to its far-reaching implications for neuroscience and molecular genetics, this finding suggests new ways of
thinking about the interface between nature and nurture during the school years.
Why, despite life's `slings and arrows of outrageous fortune', do genetically driven differences increasingly account for differences in general cognitive ability? We suggest that the answer lies with genotype-environment correlation: as children grow up, they increasingly select, modify and
even create their own experiences in part based on their genetic propensities."
http://www.tweelingenregister.org/nederlands/verslaggeving/NTR-publicaties_2009/Haworth_MP_2009epub.pdf
Whenever I hear the word "consumerist" I begin to suspect the author has a certain political axe to grind.
What reason aside from arbitrary whim leads you to pick 130 as a cut-off? Is it because that group includes you? There isn't anything special about 130 IQ. In fact, one could easily argue the cutoff should be 140+, since it that group that is capable of forming theories out of the essentials of any situation. Or 124+, since that group is capable of autodidactism.
But it's a bit pussy to start deciding who's useless without stating your underlying ideology.
Mine's preservation of Western civilization. What's yours?
"Absence of anyone lower than 130 IQ would be much better security"
In the world you'd create, one high IQ sociopath that disagrees with your values could do as much damage as a million man infantry with double digit IQs. The fact that you don't foresee that leads me to offer this bit of advice: drop the attitude, fucker.
If Mr. Shenk is still reading this, perhaps it would be best for him to concretely clarify his position.
Let's say we take an average intelligence (IQ = 100, B student) kid at around age 6 or 7. At this point, his cognitive ability couldn't be more average: his vocabulary, reading ability, spatial recognition, etc. Additionally, his entire family is average as well. He lives in a middle class home, in a middle class neighborhood, with one sibling and two happily married parents. The father is a technician for an engineering firm and the mother is an elementary schoolteacher.
We give this kid the most absolutely intense individual academic training from age 6 to age 18. We make sure to use the best educational resources, the best studying programs, the best studying techniques, etc. We spend millions of dollars formulating the most individualized educational program for this child of average IQ.
With 12 years of the most intense cognitive training, could this child grow up and obtain a PhD in theoretical Physics from an Ivy League university?
I think your answer to this will greatly clear up any confusion on where you stand.
Thanks. Looking forward to your answer.
I can find scientists saying the exact opposite (the ones not afraid to oppose idealism):
http://www.newsweek.com/id/215115
"Genetic studies have shown that the particular set of weight-regulating genes that a person has is by far the most important factor in determining how much that person will weigh. The heritability of obesity—a measure of how much obesity is due to genes versus other factors—is about the same as the heritability of height. It's even greater than that for many conditions that people accept as having a genetic basis, including heart disease, breast cancer, and schizophrenia. As nutrition has improved over the past 200 years, Americans have gotten much taller on average, but it is still the genes that determine who is tall or short today. The same is true for weight. Although our high-calorie, sedentary lifestyle contributes to the approximately 10-pound average weight gain of Americans compared to the recent past, some people are more severely affected by this lifestyle than others. That's because they have inherited genes that increase their predisposition for accumulating body fat. Our modern lifestyle is thus a necessary, but not a sufficient, condition for the high prevalence of obesity in our population. "
Read the last bolded sentence (starts, "Our modern lifestyle..."). I swear I didn't read this before I wrote my post last night.
Max wrote:
"My argument is if you take top 1% IQ wise, not all of those people would be equally useful and contributing. But all of them would have the potential at least. And with current population there is 60+ million of capable people, that is more than entire population of 18th century Europe
If you take the "average" - NONE of them will contribute anything at all..."
----------------------
So what do you propose to do with the average and dumb people?
You claim none of them can contribute anything useful. Ok, then who works on the farms that grow your food? Who drives the trucks that bring your food to your city? Who collects your garbage? Who will care for you if you are old and feeble? An unkind, driven, aggressive person with high IQ?
You ask why kindness is important. You must be some sort of psycho if you think kindness isn't important. That is all I've got to say.
Feministx, don't you have some clothes to take off?
Seriously, your idea is that everyone should enrich Shenk by buying his idiotic book in the idle hope that it says something different from HIS OWN hourlong summaries of it.
Shenk is nothing, yesterday's news. Let him bleat about training all he wants. He is the kind of Gladwellian idiot who specializes in making people feel both conventionally wise and safely rebellious.
In the meantime even the hardcore idiot bioethicists like Fat Henry Greely of Stanford are calling for neuroenhancing drugs in Nature. Now that is something that will lead somewhere.
No environment will compensate for genetics. If you dont have genetics to be in top 1% - you will never be. You can teach a "Dull Normal " (80-90 iq) to read and count change but he will never be able to do anything requiring brain power (physics ,math, CS , heck - even fire fighting as recent lawsuits show )
I know of a guy with an IQ of 95 who has a PhD and has published papers in peer-reviewed (natural) science journals. He is of course exceptional, but in general IQ is more useful when comparing groups rather than individuals. Individuals may, to some extent, compensate for their lower intelligence by being extremely hard-working, whereas in group comparisons the effect of personality differences is canceled out.
I agree with FeministX that you should read the book before critiquing it, although by all accounts it is just a retread of old anti-hereditarian fallacies and strawmen.
The very title of The Genius in all of us just sounds waaaay too Oprah-ish PC for me.
I know of a guy with an IQ of 95 who has a PhD and has published papers in peer-reviewed (natural) science journals
All that means is how low college education has fallen. PhDs are dime a dozen now , and 99% of those "peer reviewed papers " are complete rubbish
All that means is how low college education has fallen. PhDs are dime a dozen now , and 99% of those "peer reviewed papers " are complete rubbish..
A PhD in the natural sciences is not rubbish. Moreover, you are being highly irrational when you condemn this guy's work as worthless even though you know nothing about it. I'm not claiming that he's some great scientist (in fact, he dropped out of the academic world), only that your claim that "You can teach a 'Dull Normal' (80-90 iq) to read and count change but he will never be able to do anything requiring brain power" is BS if you think there are no exceptions.
If he can get a PhD in the natural sciences with a 95, then there's something wrong with that score.
But yes, there are exceptions. Scores are most reliable (if fact, extremely reliable) when applied when to increasingly larger groups.
If he can get a PhD in the natural sciences with a 95, then there's something wrong with that score.
He said that he took several tests, including a Mensa one, whose scores came within a few points of each other. I skimmed his dissertation, which is online. I have no expertise to judge its merits (he's a biologist), but considering it is based on his articles that were published in reputable journals, it seems legit.
I came across this guy by reading his blog (not in English), and was very surprised to learn about his low IQ, because he comes off as a sharp, logical thinker and is a rather great prose stylist.
What's the guy's name and his blog, JL?
What's the guy's name and his blog, JL?
I don't feel like naming him publicly, and his blog is in a language you're unlikely to understand. I can give you a link to a pdf of his dissertation if you give me your e-mail address.
What reason aside from arbitrary whim leads you to pick 130 as a cut-off?
Well you gotta pick a number .
Is it because that group includes you? There isn't anything special about 130 IQ. In fact, one could easily argue the cutoff should be 140+, since it that group that is capable of forming theories out of the essentials of any situation. Or 124+, since that group is capable of autodidactism.
Autodidact-ism actually was one of my prime criteria .The other was having a subset large enough to accommodate and capture sufficient genetic variability. Other , not necessarily correlated with IQ are important to have in selection pool
If I said 200 iq, the subset would be too small to support the minimum necessary for creating a functioning industrial system supporting scientific progress
You claim none of them can contribute anything useful. Ok, then who works on the farms that grow your food? Who drives the trucks that bring your food to your city? Who collects your garbage? Who will care for you if you are old and feeble? An unkind, driven, aggressive person with high IQ?
All those tasks could be performed better and more efficiently by 130+ IQ subset ,especially with automatization, in fact most of those task could be completely automated today (low iq people are the ones holding the progress back actually) .
And , no, thank ,you I dont need some "caring,kind" low iq person when I am useless, feeble and old. If I reach that stage(net contribution< net resource usage) that the natural an obvious point to end one existence
You ask why kindness is important. You must be some sort of psycho if you think kindness isn't important. That is all I've got to say.
And by 2nd post you resorted to ad hominem attacks.
I came across this guy by reading his blog (not in English), and was very surprised to learn about his low IQ, because he comes off as a sharp, logical thinker and is a rather great prose stylist.
Hmm he might be the outlier with wildly varied results on IQ sub-components , if he is good writer he might have exceptional verbal score, but may very well lack in performance and quant subsections
Whatever it is it is not relevant . If we pick only population with iq>=x (x=130) we will have all kind of individuals in that subset. Sure we might miss a few outliers like this guy (if he is indeed any good) but in big picture it doesn't matter
It is not about selecting every deserving individual without missing anybody. Surely we could use many other criteria, but as far as simple solutions go IQ threshold cut off is the best criteria you can have .
Just think how much more effective China's "one child" policy (yields 1.7) would be if they allowed two children for every couple with avg. IQ of 120 and no children for couples with IQ of 85 and lower. Then they could have unlimited offspring plus bonus payments for having more for couples in which each of the partners were 130 or higher. They could give such parents some hokey patriotic parent award. Now as it is smart Chinese move to the US for financially rewarding careers and to escape the one child BS.
If you are going to be authoritarian, you might as well be effective.
Just think how much more effective China's "one child" policy (yields 1.7) would be if they allowed two children for every couple with avg. IQ of 120 and no children for couples with IQ of 85 and lower. Then they could have unlimited offspring plus bonus payments for having more for couples in which each of the partners were 130 or higher. They could give such parents some hokey patriotic parent award. Now as it is smart Chinese move to the US for financially rewarding careers and to escape the one child BS.
If you are going to be authoritarian, you might as well be effective.
IQ is important, but certainly not the only factor. There is talent, hard work, interest, curiousness, common sense, etc. These are character traits, and everything I've read about character and personality points to a very strong genetic component.
There are many people who have aptitude but no appetite or,like myself, who have more appetite than aptitude. Either way it is personality and that is highly heritable.
Bottom line - it's all in the genes.
Notice how Shenk didn't return to clarify, in a concrete fashion, his main thesis. His book depends on its ambiguity and the "talking out of both sides of his mouth" strategy.
http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2010/03/responding-to-david-shenks-genuis-in.html#comment-1232265306596903240
Another thought:
I think Shenk's dissimulation here underpins the whole "helicopter mom" phenomenon in the suburbs. Parents buy into this stuff, thinking that with occupational therapists, playing classical music, doing worksheets instead of recess, and then pushing them into AP classes which they can't handle, that somehow their average kid will be an Ivy Leaguer. The pressure cooker of suburbia right now is based on dishonest individuals like Shenk.
And it's leading to childhood burnout, anxiety, and a hatred of education. I mean how can someone love something that they're going to fail no matter how hard they try.
"that somehow their average kid will be an Ivy Leaguer."
I've seen slightly above average kids become ivy leaguers but I personally have never seen it happen because of indulgent parenting. A kid with a 115 IQ and good academic planning and a great work ethic can get to the ivy league. You just take the easy AP classes and none of the hard ones, you get extra tutoring for the classes you aren't good at and you get all As. You get a mediocre SAT score, but do enough extracurriculars and get good recs. Sometimes a kid like this gets in a lesser ivy. I grew up with a girl my age who could never get into the gifted program. Her parents had her tested at least twice. Now she has one degree from Stanford and another from Upenn. But it was not her parents. It was her machine-like work ethic.
I also have a totally stupid cousin with very indulgent parents. If she gets into a good school, I will then have one data point which suggests that good parenting can produce an academically successful child.
Dont' be obtuse FemX. You know what I meant by "Ivy Leaguer". I didn't really mean getting a degree. By that metric, a bunch of barely literate football players are "Ivy Leaguers".
I used "Ivy League" as an umbrella term for people of high intelligence capable of UNDERSTANDING high level physics, economics, literature, etc.
"You know what I meant by "Ivy Leaguer".
No I didn't. Ivy leaguer to me means ivy leaguer.
What exactly is your metric for assessing if a person with IQ < 130 truly understands a hard science? Not educational level, so then what?
Max wrote:
"...we pick only population with iq>=x (x=130) ..."
--------------------
Pick them for what? And you never answered my question about what your plans are for the people with IQ's less than 130.
Pick them for what? And you never answered my question about what your plans are for the people with IQ's less than 130.
Pick as a demographic target. It could be achieved in various ways , one if , like silly girl mentioned, implementing demographic policies highly encouraging above reproduction birth rate for 130+ population segment and keeping the others below one
If Mr. Shenk is still reading this, perhaps it would be best for him to concretely clarify his position.
Or you can just read his fucking book you pseudointellectual lazy piece of shit hack.
Notice how Shenk didn't return to clarify, in a concrete fashion, his main thesis. His book depends on its ambiguity and the "talking out of both sides of his mouth" strategy.
If you're too lazy to read his book, what is he supposed to do? Spoon feed it to you in the comments section? He said he'd debate you seriously when you stopped being so lazy.
This is a group which is above all unimpressed with credentials.
except for IQ scores, right?
One could author dozens of books and earn multiple PHDs, but if they can't formulate a coherent response to criticism they won't be taken seriously here.
One can write dozens of reviews of books and brag about his IQ all day, but if he can't take the time to actually read the books he's reviewing, he hasn't earned a coherent response to their criticism.
What a maroon.
He, he, libs get HBD alright.
Check out this comment from a Salon.com article about a secular lib who chose to homeschool.
"skimming
The problem I have with most alternatives to public schooling (vouchers, charters, home-schooling) is that they take the the easy-to-teach kids out of the public system and leave the harder-to-reach kids with fewer resources. Kids with more severe disabilities, kids with more difficult home-life, kids who are non-native English speakers, etc., remain. The public school then looks "worse," the teachers have a more concentrated challenge, and the kids in both places get a less diverse experience.
I wish with all my heart that the parents who abandon public schools would instead invest their energies and time in *improving* their local public school. Then all kids would benefit.
—Juliebird"
Gee, Juliebird, why are these kids so easy to teach, hmm? Could it be they are the brighter bulbs and their parents don't want them bored and in a class with the slow, dysfunctional kids picking on them and modeling anti social behaviors and "diverse" vocabularies and grammars?
>This is a group which is above all unimpressed with credentials.
except for IQ scores, right?<
Anonymous, you can’t even grasp the difference between measurable attributes (height or IQ, for instance) and credentials (such as a Ph.D. or a plumber’s license), but you just referred to somebody else as a maroon. Don't you know any better than to piss in the wind like that?
Well, actually Max does have a point. It would be a completely different world if most or all people were autodidacts, intellectually capable of becoming good physicans, lawyers and engineers. Arguably a much better one - freer, cleaner, more prosperous and safe.
I'm not sure encouraging smarter people to breed more (and dumber less) would be all that effective, though, unless we completely took feminism out of the equation and made high IQ women baby-making machines. That would be a pretty tough sell.
I think ultimately the solution has to be genetic engineering, and we should dedicate a significant portion of our national R&D budget towards that end.
--
Haumea
I'm not sure encouraging smarter people to breed more (and dumber less) would be all that effective, though, unless we completely took feminism out of the equation and made high IQ women baby-making machines. That would be a pretty tough sell.
I think it is possible, given the relative success of China's population control policies (they do have major problems with details (such as male/female ratio), but overall they were able to slowdown and even reverse uncontrolled growth.This is a testament that demographic policies can be effective and not some unrealistic pipe dream.
It would definitely have to be enforced and would probably work with Asian only (they are most law abidings). I mean its not really hard - mandatory IQ testing by age 14-16 and sterilization of those falling below threshold (<85). Sterilization of those with average IQ after first child birth . Encouraged emigration of those below threshold and immigration of those above. No voting rights for those below threshold, and heavy taxation.
And state sponsored childbirth for gifted.Other thing such as encouraging early motherhood (20-25 year old) would be also a big plus as it makes for healthier children
If society encourages all high IQ females to have children and gives them complete support and takes care of child raising if mother desires so I don't see it being such a hard sell.
High IQ mother after having 3-4 nice healthy babies by age 25 would be free to pursuit any endeavor she wants (be it raising children herself or career/education). And she would receive a generous package for following policy (say state sponsored house and amenities, free education , free housekeeping and babysitting)
Most females(even high IQ ones) love children- my mother had to balance my birth and her work on PhD in her early 20s but she many times told me if she could she would have many more children .
I think ultimately the solution has to be genetic engineering, and we should dedicate a significant portion of our national R&D budget towards that end.
That is definitely a good solution, albeit there been a lot of animosity and hostility towards it in western world ,it stifles the progress in that area majorly
JL:
Send it to semperprogames@yahoo.com.
I can also say I have little to fear with identity with that being an email I almost never use.
Concerning the physical science PhD who claims to have an IQ of 95: If he can actually do PhD level work, and if he really is "a sharp, logical thinker and is a rather great prose stylist," then he is in fact well above average in intelligence. Period. If the various IQ tests he took do not reflect this, then it is a failure of the tests. While I think it's clear that the blank slaters are wrong when they claim such tests are meaningless, the fact that the tests statistically do a good job predicting performance does not mean that they will never give results that are just flat out wrong.
If you have any other studies that show stability in human traits, cognitive, physical, or otherwise, please include them in the comments
Wrong way. If you're asserting that traits are stable, you need to look for evidence that they aren't stable. Otherwise, one searches for more white swans to confirm that all swans are white.
In theory, there could be n interventions that leave whatever trait unchanged and one intervention that changes it. The existence of many ways of not doing something is not proof that it can't be done. For example, watching tv and eating hohos: no increase in cardiovascular fitness. Playing WoW and eating pringles: no increase in cardiovascular fitness. Running every day until one can run 5 miles a day: increase in cardiovascular fitness.
I did read Mr. Shenk's book. He confuses playing basketball very well with being a genius. Perhaps he was not confused, maybe bouncing a ball shows brilliance. But it seems obvious to me that even though Steven Hawking has no hook shot, he's still smart.
One should also note that when Mr. Jordan left basketball, he did not leave to find a cure for cancer, he left for baseball. Maybe that was because he could contribute nothing to curing cancer. Or maybe he could, but is an evil man who wants people to die from cancer.
Shenk's chapter on something or other and late bloomers did not discuss late bloomers.
Richard Hoste has posted his review of David Shenk's The Genius in All of Us on the Alternative Right Website:
http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodiversity/the-happy-science/
Hoste found much to criticize, and Hoste did read Shenk's book.
@Max,
Are you serious, or just trolling?
Your proposals are repugnant. Hitler already tried that stuff and it didn't work out.
"If Mr. Shenk is still reading this, perhaps it would be best for him to concretely clarify his position.
Let's say we take an average intelligence (IQ = 100, B student) kid at around age 6 or 7. At this point, his cognitive ability couldn't be more average: his vocabulary, reading ability, spatial recognition, etc. Additionally, his entire family is average as well. He lives in a middle class home, in a middle class neighborhood, with one sibling and two happily married parents. The father is a technician for an engineering firm and the mother is an elementary schoolteacher.
We give this kid the most absolutely intense individual academic training from age 6 to age 18. We make sure to use the best educational resources, the best studying programs, the best studying techniques, etc. We spend millions of dollars formulating the most individualized educational program for this child of average IQ.
With 12 years of the most intense cognitive training, could this child grow up and obtain a PhD in theoretical Physics from an Ivy League university?
I think your answer to this will greatly clear up any confusion on where you stand.
Thanks. Looking forward to your answer."
Why don't you tell us what you think would happen?
Double posting to recieve email followups on this post.
@ Brent:
I'd say maybe 1 or 2 would be able to get a physics PhD (out of 1000, maybe a few average 6 years olds would turn out to be late blooming upper right enders). As for Shenk, he did send me this resposne where he evades any concrete statement:
We know that if you track 1000 actual six-year-olds of average intelligence, relatively few will end up with Ph.D.s. But if you ask the question of what is *possible,* and you look at the research of how, under the best circumstances of teaching, attitude, time, etc, someone with an average ability can be transformed into someone with extraordinary ability, the only fair answer to your question would be: A) We truly don't know. B) Conceivably, quite a large number.
He also sent a bunch of "evidence" quotes from PC types.
Yes, it was directed at you.
What are we taking as the bare minimum IQ for an Ivy League PHD in theoretical physics, though? And was that email sent to you? What quotes did he include?
It's been 2 days now, can you get back to me?
Also, what did you mean by this?
"The former of which has little implications beyond personal appeasement and confirming erudite theories of educational philosophy."
I don't really have time to answer every question directed at me. I answered the basic question (1-2 kids) and provided Shenk's response to me. I think that's good enough.
If this post, all the links within it, and the 73 comments aren't good enough, then I'm sorry.
Can you atleast give a bare minimum IQ for what you believe to be the threshold for an Ivy League PHD in theoretical physics?
In my opinion, if you use the threshold as 130, then yes, I believe you could raise that child to that level and likely even higher. If it was 145, I'm not so sure, but you could come close.
If thise was continued from the earliest possible age to the mid 20's when brain growth ends, then you could definitely go even farther.
I obviously don't see this as a realistic scenario for most people considering how astoundingly sustained, complex, and costly these would all be. I find this kind of scenario to be markedly different from the high average heritability of IQ in the modern first world, that being .7-.9, which would be about 5-8 points being due to environment. The problem with this is that it simply looks at the average change in the average first world environment and isn't well applicable to more narrow focused, extreme environments.
I don't believe the more extreme environments are so alien to the processes of the average ones, since IQ obviously isn't ultra malleable. Still, you go to another extremity, where you exhibit skepticism to even highly sustained, differentiated environments, such as your allusion to Murray's work claiming only a 5% gain.
Charles Murray's The Bell Curve is your model of good use of data?? Wow.
Post a Comment