Western Imperialism is one of those phrases Berkeley political science students love to say while sipping their lattes and musing on the world's problems. Implicit in the condemnation of imperialism is the idea that forced subjugation of an indigenous population is immoral, that forcibly supplanting a given ethnic group represents a moral wrong. As everyone knows, the formation of the American colonies required the displacement of Native Americans. This also occurred in Latin America and in Africa due to the slave trade and subsequent colonization.
The leftist assumes this is wrong. But why? The only tenable argument for such a position is the correspondence between empire-building and violence. But violence is merely an unnecessary consequence of imperialism, an act engaged in by a group stubbornly opposing positive change. Of course, such an assertion requires the context I provide below.
In dilemmas involving large groups of individuals, the most rational avenue for resolving conflict is appeal to utilitarianism. In any debate, we simply define a reasonable measure of good or "gross utility" and seek solutions that most readily maximize these aspects of life. In this situation, the task is formulation of civilization and the "goods" are societal stability, crime, technological advancement, industrial advancement, development and attainability of luxury, harvesting of natural resources, food, etc. As any Gaia-worshipping leftist knows, planet Earth has a limited number of natural resources, especially in a time where society was solely agrarian. Land is the most important commodity, along with trade routes along rivers.
So which group, Native Americans, South Americans, and Africans or Europeans, is best able to utilize the land and natural resources of the Western Hemisphere and Africa? While Jared Diamond might disagree, HBD research, including Lynn's seminal work on IQ and wealth of nations, tells us ethnic and racial groups will succeed or fail relative to their innate predilections. [This also applies to Asian countries, but they formed largely insular societies during this global colonization.] If we seek to maximize gross utility, and do so by taking into account all peoples, it's clear that imperialism represents the most moral strategy available for dividing land.
Leftists seek a global society where arbitrary borders have little meaning. So why then does imperialism, which is essentially a denunciation of traditional ethnic borders, represent such a dastardly activity? Further, European imperialists created daughter states that provided a boon to their home countries, early settlers, and subsequently, the world at large (where would Haiti be without America?). Native Americans, South Americans, and Africans are simply incapable of gross technological and societal advancement. If Europe hadn't set about colonizing the West, it would have possibly succumbed to overpopulation, disease, or have been stifled due simply to geography. [This may be a current problem for Japan.]
The argument against imperialism holds that all cultures and peoples have equal potential. But HBD directly opposes such an idealistic contention. Similarly, anti-imperialistic idealism holds onto the "noble savage" idea which I've previously covered. European colonization supposedly permanently tarnishes these glorified cultures.
Thus, the oppressed non-whites and their noble savage wisdom must possess truths not readily available to the privileged Westerners. Contrastingly, the non-whites possess an exotic quality closer to the spiritual basis of man, not besmirched by the racist, classist, and sexist West...[T]he noble savage doesn't engage in the deleterious activities of the oppressive Western classes.Finally, there's the issue of violence and forced subjugation. I'm going to veer into eccentricity here and contend that the Native Americans and South Americans should have peacefully acquiesced to the demands of the European settlers. By engaging in a peaceful surrender, the conquered peoples may lose some freedom and cultural vigor, but the positive changes derived from increased trade, including medicine or technology, would offset these harmful ramifications. In the end, a conquered peoples loses autonomy, but again, utilitarianism sometimes must ignore emotional desires in order to achieve some greater good.
57 comments:
While HBDers revel in their ability to express un-PC ideas, the most explicit of HBD implications are sometimes swept under the rug.
Racial intelligence has pretty clear implications for ability to build productive and stable societies. That's what I'm saying.
I guess I'm not sure how provocative that is.
Well said.
Without the lie of multiculturalism, Zinnism evaporates.
"I guess I'm not sure how provocative that is."
It's the logical consequence of belief in scientific validity of HBD.
JB
You can't sell even me with that argument. If someone can make better use of something than someone else they have the moral right to enslave the person who owns it and put them to work exploiting it the way the enslaver could?
Howard Zinn's radical egalitarianism is the essence of liberal idealism. They historically opposed Darwinian thinking on human nature by developing an anthropology and politics designed to suppress Darwinism and proselytize for the kind of egalitarian global order discussed by OneSTDV so ably.
If the world is Darwinian it does not necessarily follow that it cannot be peaceful. Cultures can produce the ideas, methods, and products that reduce strife and promote good relations.If one reads Thomas Sowell's Conquests and Cultures, which is a highly readable book, one understands how "natural" it was for stronger peoples to conduct emperial actions throughout history.Darwin would not be surprised at the widespread practice of "emperialism" that Sowell acknowledges was pervasive in our world.
When the Mongol hordes swept across Asia into Europe and the Middle-East, they terrified and slaughtered native populations.Killing. torture, and slavery were common features of various conquests. Emperialism is related to the various and sundry conquests when conquerers like the Romans, Chinese, or Arabs dominated an area for a long period involving peaceful co-existence and cultural exchanges favoring, of course, the conquerers.Areas like Britain improved as a result of Roman occupation while India was vastly improved after British occupation.
Emperialism is obviously not all bad if one thinks about the learning that takes place between cultures that intermix.Things like sugar, maize, cocoa, and rubber could be sent to Europe from the Western Hemisphere while horses, guns, liquor, and literacy could move from Europe to North and South America. Skills used in agriculture could be shared between peoples.Slavs became Christians after invading Christian Europe and Turks became Muslims after conquering various Islamic lands.
Space restricts this discussion but OneSTDV reminds us of the HBD reality of today's science and its profound implications, including the direct refutation of the Zinn principle of total and absolute equality. We can agonize over the vast panorama of historical conquest and submission but if Darwin's view of human nature is right then human greed and aggression were primary factors in the history of conquest, some of which we call emperialism.Of course, evolving populations had both biological and cultural differences that greatly affected the sagas of conquest. For example, Native Americans were biologically unable to cope with infectious diseases brought from Europe by our founding white populations. They died from measles and smallpox in vast numbers.The Spanish conquistadors also spread diseases that made their conquest of South and Central America much easier.Who is to judge "emperialism" when it was universal and related to the Darwinian human nature that involves aggression against alien peoples.The diversity of nature is the real basis for competition and aggression.Selective moralizing about the sins of the West will not withstand reasonable scrutiny.Sowell's book should be essential reading in our colleges, but the PC atmosphere will not encourage it-despite Sowell's blackness.
"If someone can make better use of something than someone else they have the moral right to enslave the person who owns it and put them to work exploiting it the way the enslaver could?"
Hell no! There should be a peaceful agreement between the two parties, hopefully one that is mutually beneficial. But I was NOT implying one group can morally enslave the other. Perhaps, one group controls the land or dominates the relationship, but I'm surely not advocating a slave-slaveowner dynamic here.
I think it is a mistake to try to give any moral justification at all for the displacement of stone-age peoples.
Liberalism only exists in an atmosphere where the believers are sheltered from the real world and the consequences of their actions. Back then, when everyone, even in the advanced civilizations was just eaking out a living, there was none of this useless talk about the right or wrong of the matter among the mass of the people.
OneSTDV said: "Western Imperialism is one of those phrases Berkeley political science students love to say while sipping their lattes and musing on the world's problems."
Oops, two minor errors in an otherwise excellent post.
Here, let me fix them for you:
Western Imperialism is one of those phrases Berkeley students from every discipline love to say while sipping their lattes and musing on how genocidal whites caused all of the world's problems.
"If we seek to maximize gross utility, and do so by taking into account all peoples, it's clear that imperialism represents the most moral strategy available for dividing land."
If. And you need to define "we": Is "We" the would be thieves or does "we" include the would be victims?
Europeans could have just stayed put where they were.
The rest of the world was quite happy to carry along as always. They did not need anything from Europeans.
Just because I own a piece of land that others want, and which I'm entirely satisfied to keep under-developed, does not mean that others with the capacity to develop that land have any right to take it away from me, or force me to live in the "productive" manner they see fit (supposing they're even interested in my welfare. Claims of bettering me could merely be a pretext to exploit me and the resources of mine which are coveted.)
Moreover, my way of life could depend on the underdevelopment of my land. I may not want to give up my way of life, and, given any sort of choice, the only way you could get me to give it away is by the other end of a gun. And that would be thuggery.
The Rindermann 'smart fractions' paper is a good summary of the latest research supporting the Lynn/Vanhannen
position.
iratde.org/issues/1-2009/tde_issue_1-2009_03_rindermann_et_al.pdf
Also, Millers article in the Economist touches on this.
"If the shift from GWAS to sequencing studies finds evidence of such politically awkward and morally perplexing facts, we can expect the usual range of ideological reactions, including nationalistic retro-racism from conservatives and outraged denial from blank-slate liberals. The few who really understand the genetics will gain a more enlightened, live-and-let-live recognition of the biodiversity within our extraordinary species—including a clearer view of likely comparative advantages between the world’s different economies."
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14742737
Onestdv, how do you define xenophobia and is being a xenophobe bad?
@ UA:
Hmm. Xenophobia is an irrational and strong fear or hatred of the "other".
Is this necessarily a bad thing? I'd say if one applies this xenophobia to an entire race or ethnic group, then it's bad. Not every member is described by the average.
But if we define xenophobia as a fear of (or self-imposed separation from) the "other", then it's not wrong.
Several comments:
Emperialism should be Imperialism.Sorry.
Anonymous: You are sublimely naive about history. If you read any book on world hisory, especially the Sowell book I recommended, you learn quickly that horses, camels, feet, and ships were used to carry people far from their home base. Marco Polo was extreme but many merchants travelled hundreds of miles to conduct commercial activities. The Portuegese had ships strong enough to sail the seas to Africa before 1500. Arabs conducted trade in Africa long before Europeans colonized that tragic continent.
Sowell's main point was that the phenomenon of conquest and empire-building was characteristic of nearly all peoples. All races and religions participated-often with relish- in the mayhem- while today the Left castigates only the West. They are wrong.
In the exact same way that I have no tolerance for the stupidity of Equalitarians, I have no tolerance for the dumbness of Capital Worshippers.
This pean to the wonders of being able to increase wealth and technology and for that to be the true measure of man is not just morally repugnant but nonsensical.
Money and scientific progress are definitely good for a great many things but they are WORTHLESS in the face of death, debilitating illness or sadness and a great many other forms ogf suffering, including the "surrender" of the only way of life and your father and your people have ever known.
Just as a blog comment isn't the place to attempt to upend the mystical belief by hundreds of millions of intelligent people that Africans are physicist-couldabeens, a blog comment isn't the place to attempt to upens the ridiculous belief held by hundreds of millions of people who should know better that the true measure of a man or a civilization is its ability to generate capital.
I shout not for the edification of the clueless but for the encouragement of my fellow frustrated ones.
"Money and scientific progress are definitely good for a great many things but they are WORTHLESS in the face of death, debilitating illness or sadness and a great many other forms ogf suffering"
You're missing the quite obvious notion that science, technology, and money can greatly moderate death, disease, and illness. Further, they can make live all the more worthwhile to be lived.
"a blog comment isn't the place to attempt to upens the ridiculous belief held by hundreds of millions of people who should know better that the true measure of a man or a civilization is its ability to generate capital."
The measure of a MAN is not solely his ability generate capital (we're not all "blessed" with these gifts). But the measure of a civilization is the quality of life of its citizens. Only a cultural Marxist thinks otherwise.
And while your idealism precludes you from accepting it, money and technology are chief causes in increasing quality of life. That's the way it is. Further, as I allude to in my post, traditional cultural mores have value. But surely, many would gladly relinquish them for the offer of health, luxury, family stability, and safety.
Off Topic.
Axelrod tells ABC, "People will never know what is the health care bill until we pass it."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWMB26GnqA&feature=player_embedded
The NY Times had an article about the rise of human sacrifice in Africa. For those who like to make moral arguments, it seems wiping out such a culture would be a good thing. Cultures are not equal. Duh. Therefore they don't have equal value. How about those Aztecs? Why should anyone miss that culture?
I'm confused, OneSDTV, at one point you want to defend Western Imperialism yet opppose the concept of forceful emiment domain.
While I don't know much about imperialism's morality, it's pretty obvious that it has been pretty disastrous in practice. Take Africa, for example. In the 1800s the Europeans thought they would civilize Africa. Instead, nothing changed about Africa except for the fact that the Africans are now able to kill each other more effectively with firearms.
The current wars are another example. The neocons thought they could turn the Islamic countries of Iraq and Afghanistan into American-style Jeffersonian democracies. That's working out really well.
"The rest of the world was quite happy to carry along as always."
You mean happily slaughtering, conquering, and enslaving each other? The rest of the world was doing exactly what the Europeans were doing - the Europeans were just better at it.
"They did not need anything from Europeans."
Tell that to the billions of people who are alive now because of European science, technology, and medicine.
"While I don't know much about imperialism's morality, it's pretty obvious that it has been pretty disastrous in practice. Take Africa, for example. In the 1800s the Europeans thought they would civilize Africa. Instead, nothing changed about Africa except for the fact that the Africans are now able to kill each other more effectively with firearms."
You have made an elementary error here. The disaster was not imperialism - the disaster was ending imperialism. Africans are now killing each other in vast numbers because the age of imperialism is over. The native populations were far better off under European rule.
"While I don't know much about imperialism's morality, it's pretty obvious that it has been pretty disastrous in practice."
This isn't obvious at all. In fact, a quite reasonable argument can be made that in many instances imperialism conferred more benefits than hardships upon the subjugated. Ultimately, this is one of those unresolvable questions, in that it hinges to a great degree on the extent to which one values the preservation of one's culture, rule by one's own kind, and so forth.
yeah, this is why I didn't like the movie avatar. Pretty ,much for the reasons you just said.
"You mean happily slaughtering, conquering, and enslaving each other?"
But that wasn't the substance of their life, was it? Sure, there was endless friction between tribes and warfare that resulted in death, but mostly, people stayed put and lived and died under the comfort of their people. Moreover, there's the simple fact that the way these people lived is the way humans have pretty much always lived. It's very likely that the average indigenous person was considerably happier (and more fulfilled) than the average Western person. Western man sacrifices leisure and happiness in order to have security and order, whereas the indigenous man sacrifices order and security in order to have leisure and happiness.
And if indigenous people enslaved each other, then the enslaved and their descendants were soon incorporated into the conquering tribe (indeed, what type of work would there be anyway for the enslaved to do?.) Their form of slavery was mild, and far from the cruel Western version practiced upon blacks.
"Tell that to the billions of people who are alive now because of European science, technology, and medicine."
That's like saying "thank that person who introduced your parents to each other that your alive." Western technology has contributed to the worldwide population boom but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not indigenous peoples would have preferred to be colonized and robbed of their way of life.
OneSTDV, you go on and on about "quality of life."
In terms of social connections, intimacy, being near your kin, being part of a tribe, living the type of life your species has been adapting to for most of its history, etc, Native Americans (and other indigenous people around the world) had a high quality of life. Everything that's lacking in a Western lifestyle they had/have in spades. So speaking of "quality of life" is presumptuous if your definition of "quality of life" doesn't include the things that made the indigenous lifestyle meaningful to its individuals.
Anonymous, Anonymous... how cute you sound pointing to things such as being close with your kin and continuing the way of life and language that you were raised with and being able to hunt, etc, etc, etc as in some way being worth anything. Don't you know that being a wage slave for minimum wage - all of which you have to spend on your roach infested hovel - is far more valuable than any of the things that you mentioned or referred to? Modern day people, even poor ones, can make phone calls. Phone calls! They also have pants with pockets and can take the bus FAAAAR distances. What a wondrous life they lead compared with primitives!
See, I myself, in a previous comment made a point similar to yours. OneSTDV however enlightened me. Money, you see, is all that's really important. Money and markets. If you disagree you needn't worry that he'll call you a fascist like some leftist would for disagreeing with him, we're on the RIGHT here! We kinna like fascists... No, he'll use the kindergarten ad hominem taunt that's more popular in these quarters. What was it again? Oh yes, "Cultural Marxist". what exactly that means nobody knows. what does calling someone a "fascist" mean? It doesn't mean anything. It's a taunt meant to shame you into adjusting your opinions so that they fit in better with those prevailing in the tribe. Cultural Marxist.
I (like everyone else in the West) am now enlightened and full of the knowledge that money and technological progress are so important that not only are they worth the very best hours of the day and the very best decades of our lives but that an Indian would be a fool not to turn himself over to indentured servitude so that he could be free from roaming the desert and telling stories and getting high with his kith and kin and instead be ushered into the freedom of being put to good use as an effective cog in the capitalistic wheel.
For the betterment (sorry, we still can't say "happiness" with a straight face) - for the "betterment" of us all.
The Noble Savage meme is alive and well:
http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2009/10/new-age-medicine-and-hatred-of-west.html
@ Anonymous:
Did you read the rest of my response to you? Or did you only notice "Cultural Marxist" which is not at an ad hominem, but rather a description of your position.
Also, as usual Anonymous, you miss the point. Ironic you have such a palpable arrogance.
Let's say you're right and imperialism represents a net loss for indigenous peoples. My argument is based on utilitarianism, so we must take into account GROSS utility, which includes everyone.
So the question is: is the net positive gain experienced by the European settlers and their progeny (and subsequently, non-European peoples, such as present day Haiti, that will ultimately benefit from the colonization of the Western Hemisphere) greater than the net loss suffered by the indigenous peoples?
That's the central question, not whether the indigenous people suffer a net loss.
Dude, I like you - a lot. I happen to be the kind of commenter who pretty much only pipes up where he disagrees with someone rather than most bloggers who do the opposite. Circle jerks make me uncomfortable. So, despite how harsh I am with you on this subject, it doesn't speak to a general discount of your weltanschauung, it just happens to be that on this issue you, LIKE PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY ELSE, misses the boat. While Marxism missed the boat on most matters, the criticism they had for the money-centered life and money-centered civilizational perspective happens to contain much wisdom.
Now, let me be clear. Your most recent comment here (the second response) is so astoundingly stupid and can so EASILY be ripped apart by offering a dozen examples of its logical conclusions that (because I like you) I'm going to leave it be. It's the kind of comment that an antagonistic opponent could truly rip you a new asshole over. You're smarter than that comment however so I'll just leave it to you yourself to modify it back to something approaching sanity.
And besides, it would be unfair of me to attack this extreme position when in fact my own position attacks something so much more mainstream.
My argument is NOT in favor of noble savagery or any such thing. My argument is humbler than that. It attacks your CERTAINTY about advances in technology being a good thing. You appear to be wholly clueless about the fact that as useful as money is in this world (and it is in fact oh so useful in so many ways!) equating money and technological advance with happiness or a sense of joy or a sense of meaning or any of the other things that are important to a human being is downright stupid and stands against about half a million years of human experience.
The net improvement for humanity's "quality of life" by the invention of the iphone was almost certainly in the vicinity of zero. Same for the airplane and highway system. And even the refrigerator.
Again, as I mentioned before, a comment on an ephemeral blog post isn't the place to undo a full civilization's worth of brainwashing. That takes a bit more. (Not to mention the fact that I mostly blog for kicks rather than to convince anyone of anything. A few years back I used to care about sharing the truth with people, nowadays I generally just prefer to smile and shout the truth at them.)
I'm aware of the fact that you can easily believe that you've refuted my point by throwing out some childish response about how technology has led to new medicines or some such. As if I'm just farting some half-baked idea here rather than shouting a tiny snippet of a full-blown multi-volume philosophy at you. But, again, to properly care for my reputation by pre-empting and clarifying every relevant point I'd have to spend a few days here. And I'd have to be patient. And I'd have to care.
No thanks.
Though i have to say that I HAVE been heartened to see that my point IS quite fully understood - intuitively - by more than one commenter here. There's less groupthink and agreeing with the leader on your blog than there is on most. Methinks that's something to be proud about.
Your friendly cultural-marxist/fascist/racist/liberal/doody-head
"You have made an elementary error here. The disaster was not imperialism - the disaster was ending imperialism. "
You got that right. South Africa was functioning while whites were in charge. Now it is in a death spiral.
Use Wiki to compare and contrast Barbados and Haiti.
Barbados is run by the British and Haiti is run by former slaves.
Anonymous said; "South Africa was functioning while whites were in charge. Now it is in a death spiral."
Unlike its neighbor, Zimbabwe, which is perking right along under the benevolent governance of President Mugabe.
"While HBDers revel in their ability to express un-PC ideas, the most explicit of HBD implications are sometimes swept under the rug."
"It's the logical consequence of belief in scientific validity of HBD."
There are really no explicit implications of HBD let alone logical consequences.
Not to mention your "better use" argument is rather weak and considering the criteria you seem to be basing it on leads to some rather absurd conclusions.
"Let's say you're right and imperialism represents a net loss for indigenous peoples. My argument is based on utilitarianism, so we must take into account GROSS utility, which includes everyone."
But it most certainty does not include everyone -- it doesn't include the indigenous people who would most likely overwhelmingly prefer to be left alone. And it doesn't include their progeny, who could overwhelmingly prefer to lead a lifestyle connected to the way their ancestors were living for tens of thousands of years.
"So the question is: is the net positive gain experienced by the European settlers and their progeny (and subsequently, non-European peoples, such as present day Haiti, that will ultimately benefit from the colonization of the Western Hemisphere) greater than the net loss suffered by the indigenous peoples?"
Your application of utilitarianism is fucked up. Do I need to say this? Imperialism/colonialism is not good for indigenous people. It robs them of their way of life -- the way of life our species has adapted to and they've known for thousands of years. It is a great, big, tragic loss, no matter how desirable or useful their land would be to people who already have land. Imperialism/colonialism, then, fails the "greatest happiness" principle.
So which group, Native Americans, South Americans, and Africans or Europeans, is best able to utilize the land and natural resources of the Western Hemisphere and Africa?
snip
If we seek to maximize gross utility, and do so by taking into account all peoples, it's clear that imperialism represents the most moral strategy available for dividing land.
Human beings don't derive their positions on moral issues from strictly utilitarian/cost benefit analysis. And it is far from clear that you or anyone else would much enjoy living in a country run by a government operating from a purely utilitarian framework.
For example, one could use pure utilitarianism to argue that since young Europeans can better utilize natural resources than can elderly Europeans that any European over the age of 65 should be executed so that the young won't be burdened with taking care of the old.
I also dispute whether it is necessary for European governments to takeover and demographically displace third world peoples in order to improve them. Imperialism in the 19th century did not involve large population transfers of Europeans into Africa, India, and elsewhere - the European powers simply set up an efficient civil service that ran the territories with a minimal number of people (for example there were never more than 100,000 British personal in India during the Raj).
Today, Western nations don't need to have their own foreign affairs departments run third world countries. The West could simply contract out the responsibility for running third world countries to multinational corporations who would reap any revenue derived from bringing a third world country up to minimal standards (sort of an imperialistic version of Mencius Moldbug's "Sovcorp"/"Patchwork" ideas).
Frankly, I view all forms of Imperialism (whether called 19th century Imperialism or "humanitarian nation building") as a waste of time and resources for the West.
"But that wasn't the substance of their life, was it? Sure, there was endless friction between tribes and warfare that resulted in death, but mostly, people stayed put and lived and died under the comfort of their people."
Of course it was! Primitive peoples spend lots of time slaughtering, conquering, and enslaving each other. They do so on a local scale more than an international one, but this is through lack of capability rather than lack of intention.
The Aztecs and the Incas, among others, were highly aggressive, predatory empires, and the Spanish need feel no guilt at all about crushing them.
"It's very likely that the average indigenous person was considerably happier (and more fulfilled) than the average Western person."
This is not likely at all. In fact it is absurd. The average indigenous person had a life of backbreaking physical labor, material privation, crippling illness, and violent death.
"Western man sacrifices leisure and happiness in order to have security and order, whereas the indigenous man sacrifices order and security in order to have leisure and happiness."
Indigenous man was not making a sacrifice because he was not making a choice. He was poor because he had to be, not because he wanted to be. Moreover, once again, the idea that indigenous people had "leisure and happiness" is preposterous. Western man, today, has vastly more leisure time than any indigenous people ever had (and far, far more quality things to do in that leisure time).
"Their form of slavery was mild, and far from the cruel Western version practiced upon blacks."
Balderdash.
"Western technology has contributed to the worldwide population boom but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not indigenous peoples would have preferred to be colonized and robbed of their way of life."
They owe the fact that they are alive at all, and the fact that their life has a much higher quality than that of their ancestors, to the West.
"equating money and technological advance with happiness or a sense of joy or a sense of meaning or any of the other things that are important to a human being is downright stupid and stands against about half a million years of human experience."
Just the opposite is true. Equating poverty and material want with happiness, joy, and fulfillment is profoundly stupid and is contradicted by half a million years of experience.
"it doesn't include the indigenous people who would most likely overwhelmingly prefer to be left alone."
Yeah, the Aztecs and Incas and Mughals and Zulus and countless other "victims" of western imperialism were just huuuuuuuge on leaving other people alone. We shoulda just left them alone to pursue their peaceful, harmonious lives of happiness and tranquility.
"it doesn't include their progeny, who could overwhelmingly prefer to lead a lifestyle connected to the way their ancestors were living for tens of thousands of years."
That must be why millions of their progeny seek to emigrate to the West, so they can enjoy that poor but happy indigenous lifestyle...
"Imperialism/colonialism is not good for indigenous people."
Yes it is, in the most basic way - more of them are alive now than would be alive if imperialism had never happened.
The loss of "indigenous lifestyles" is no loss at all. In the main these lifestyles were morally unjust, materially impoverished, and above all, short.
I was going to pen a response, but one of my astute readers, Lugo, said essentially everything I would have said.
Thank you.
Arguing with raving lunacy is an activity best suited for idiots. Not being one of those, I don't engage in disputations contra utilitarianism along the lines of "who could make better use of this resource". In fact, I'll surrender the point and note that because I can almost certainly make far more prodigious use of your girlfriend that you turn her over. I can also likely reap greater monetary rewards from your capital and land and other holdings and will be coming to negotiate your surrender of all this shortly. Furthermore, your body fat would make excellent soap for my Rolls so I'll be needing that too.
@ Anonymous:
Slippery slope argument.
Land is a scarce and cherished resource. Not the same, in a practical and moral context, as the examples you give.
And we're not talking private citizens, we're talking nations, peoples, and civilizations. Far different standards.
And seriously, lose the overly sardonic and pompous tone. It's tiresome.
"Of course it was! Primitive peoples spend lots of time slaughtering, conquering, and enslaving each other."
Much different from Western man.
"They do so on a local scale more than an international one, but this is through lack of capability rather than lack of intention."
I never claimed they were angels.
"The Aztecs and the Incas, among others, were highly aggressive, predatory empires, and the Spanish need feel no guilt at all about crushing them."
And likewise Aztecs and the Incas needn't have felt any guilt about crushing European countries -- if they could. What the hell is your point?
"This is not likely at all. In fact it is absurd. The average indigenous person had a life of backbreaking physical labor, material privation, crippling illness, and violent death."
"Backbreaking physical labor"? What work was there to be done other than the procurement of food? We can look at how modern indigenous people live. Do we see evidence of endless backbreaking "labor"? Same for "material privation" -- the most important of which I would say is food. Clearly they managed to get by, even with all the illnesses (which they developed immunities to) and violent death (the degree of which you exaggerate by implication.)
"Indigenous man was not making a sacrifice because he was not making a choice. He was poor because he had to be, not because he wanted to be. Moreover, once again, the idea that indigenous people had "leisure and happiness" is preposterous. Western man, today, has vastly more leisure time than any indigenous people ever had (and far, far more quality things to do in that leisure time)."
Nor are we as members of this society making any sort of choice about sacrificing leisure and happiness for security and safety. We are on this train and we can't get off, much like indigenous people couldn't get off theirs. Again, I say that being around your tribe and having all those immediate social relations -- relatives, kinsmen, tribe, while being all in it together and on the same side (without really having all that much to do) must've led to happier humans. Certainly these people faced the wrath of nature, but undoubtedly they "lived" more. They had to, just by implications of HBD alone: they lived like human creatures always did, and in accordance to what evolution mentally prepared them for. How could they not be happier then us? I'm not downplaying the down sides of their life -- certainly they were subject to the whims of nature and they fought amongst each other, but at the end of they had in spades the positive, social things that the civilized nations discard as the price of safety and order.
"Balderdash."
Come again? What type of work would there have been for the enslaved to do? Make a generalization about the way indigenous people enslaved each other, please.
"They owe the fact that they are alive at all, and the fact that their life has a much higher quality than that of their ancestors, to the West."
As I said, this is like thanking the person who introduced your parents to each other. Just because the West interfered in the histories of many people does not mean that the people who are alive should have to thank the West for the interference having led to their birth. And once again the issue of whether or not their life had a "higher quality" is a matter of contention.
"Yeah, the Aztecs and Incas and Mughals and Zulus and countless other "victims" of western imperialism were just huuuuuuuge on leaving other people alone. We shoulda just left them alone to pursue their peaceful, harmonious lives of happiness and tranquility."
They weren't developed enough to make that decision, nor they did they have the capacity to threaten Europe. That they fought amongst each other in no way justifies using that behavior to rob them of their land and way of life.
"That must be why millions of their progeny seek to emigrate to the West, so they can enjoy that poor but happy indigenous lifestyle..."
They seek to emigrate to the West because the West polluted their original way of life. It was only once these people were subjugated and their original way of life made impossible that they became "needy."
"Yes it is, in the most basic way - more of them are alive now than would be alive if imperialism had never happened."
So if something results in a population explosion, it is necessarily a good thing?
"The loss of "indigenous lifestyles" is no loss at all. In the main these lifestyles were morally unjust, materially impoverished, and above all, short."
"materially impoverished" = relative. They managed survive for tens of thousands of years. "Short" = bs. The lifespan of the indigenous people was similar to that of Europeans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
"Morally unjust" = ridiculously relative.
"Land is a scarce and cherished resource."
Your girlfriend is a scarce and cherished resource. I mean, there is only just one of her, right? And she could be special.
"And we're not talking private citizens, we're talking nations, peoples, and civilizations. Far different standards."
Why couldn't your "better use" argument be carried over to private citizens?
Human history and prehistory is replete with conquests and sujugation, mixing and assimilation. Cultural evolution itself rides on the biological realities of human nature, including our social as well as aggressive nature. No other social animal engages in open warfare and imperialism like Homo sapiens.
What Iam saying is that earlier, more primitive peoples fought almost constantly and Alexander the Great was called "great" in part because he conquered a vast area of Asia and the Middle East.While his "empire" had none of the governmental apparatus of the British Empire, it nonetheless introduced aspects of Greek civilization unknown to the subugated.OneSTDV is right about the often very substantial improvements wrought by technology and science as well as humanistic learning and arts due to imperial conquests.This is a fact of history discussed very ably by Thomas Sowell in his Conquests and Cultures.
Still, the debate over the morality of conquest is a legitimate one.Given Darwinian realities and HBD, humans evolved enough differences both biologically and culturally to ignite plenty of exploitation for territory, food, women, and other resources. An aggressive animal simply does exploitation as part of its nature. The necessities of nature led to cultural practices that were improved by technological "progress" manifesting itself as imperialism and war. While we decry war and imperialism in hindsight, we should also consider the universality of such aggression as perhaps inevitable given the stage of cultural evolution of those times.
While we are the same Homo sapiens as we were in Alexander's time-give or take a few dozen mutations, we have benefitted from 200 years of rapid scientific achievement leading to the modern liberal state from whose ramparts we peer down on history with superior moral vision.Mustn't we grasp the reaities of previous generations who had none of our egalitarian zeal?Even today Huti militias rape, murder, and pillage in Eastern Congo while an ineffectual African Union looks on.What is their excuse?
Liberal philosophy paved the way for the emergence of grand democracies in our time.Human rights are respected-more or less- in the West where first world countries have the economic power to deliver the conditions discussed by OneSTDV.Liberal thinking, however, depends upon the myth of the "blank slate." The belief that all peoples are the same creates enormous grief and expense but soothes the consciences of liberals who wish to save the world.The noble savage idea is a logical extension of this egalitarian fervor.Margaret Mead wrote about Samoa as paradise until Derek Freeman later exposed her as a fraud. Today we generally respect the territorial rights of all peoples, including Haiti, but we can shine little light on the morality of imperialism by judging the past without considering the historical context of the events.Today's liberal cannot fathom the mind of an Alexander, but, regardless, he was one of us.
Liberal thinking, however, depends upon the myth of the "blank slate." The belief that all peoples are the same creates enormous grief and expense but soothes the consciences of liberals who wish to save the world.
To be exact, modern liberal thinking depends on blank slatism because modern liberals desire equality of social, economic and cultural outcomes.
However, classical liberalism does not need blank slate justifications because classical enlightenment liberals sought to justify equality of essential human rights - not equality of outcome (though one could argue that equality of outcome ideology was a natural outgrowth of equality of rights ideology).
One can oppose subjugation of foreign peoples on classical egalitarian grounds while still acknowledging hereditarian realities.
Regarding,
"In dilemmas involving large groups of individuals, the most rational avenue for resolving conflict is appeal to utilitarianism. In any debate, we simply define a reasonable measure of good or "gross utility" and seek solutions that most readily maximize these aspects of life. In this situation, the task is formulation of civilization and the "goods" are societal stability, crime, technological advancement, industrial advancement, development and attainability of luxury, harvesting of natural resources, food, etc."
(Emphasis mine)
I don't think you're going to get everyone to agree on what is "good". People have different goals. And what they want maximized will be different.
To be specific, you've listed your goals as: "societal stability, crime, technological advancement, industrial advancement, development and attainability of luxury, harvesting of natural resources, food, etc". But not everyone has this a their goals.
For some people, piety is paramount, and everything else comes 2nd (if at all).
For other people, (individual) freedom is paramount.
Etc.
Even with some of the goals you listed, like "technological advancement", although I personally think it is extremely important, (based on my personal experience) I don't think most people do.
Also (again based on my personal experience) I think there are a lot of people who don't care about "societal stability" either. (They'd rather see the world be more like their ideal.)
This is a bad argument for imperialism. It would have been more convincing to assert that imperialism is morally neutral since every society that was capable has engaged in it. The sad truth is the pre-modern world was more bestial than humanistic, even the ancient Greeks succumbed to their most base desires for wealth and power. And the only imperialists that cared one wit for their foreign subjects were the vilified British.
@ wreaver:
your argument is textbook relativism. Using your argument, how could one distinguish between present-day Africa and present-day America? Even the most diehard liberals think the West is better, but according to you, such an assertion fails because one can't properly define "good" and "better".
So basically, you're saying there's no real difference between living in Africa and living in America. Funny that not too many third worlders agree with you:
http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/11/165-million-want-to-move-to-america.html
@OneSTDV, you said,
"So basically, you're saying there's no real difference between living in Africa and living in America."
No. I never said that.
I said that not everyone's goals are the goals you have in your list.
@OneSTDV, you also said,
"http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2009/11/165-million-want-to-move-to-america.html"
Do you really think all or even most of those people want to move to the U.S. because they have those goals you listed, or because they are looking for "greener pastures"? My impression has been that they are just looking for "greener pastures".
@OneSTDV, you also said,
"Using your argument, how could one distinguish between present-day Africa and present-day America?"
I think you misunderstood my argument. Africa and the U.S. are measurably different. Nothing in my argument was implying they were the same.
@OneSTDV, you also said,
"Even the most diehard liberals think the West is better, but according to you, such an assertion fails because one can't properly define "good" and "better"."
First, I am not a "liberal" if that is what you are trying to imply.
Second, "good" and "better" are both subjective. To deny that is silly. What is "good" and "better", from a person's point of view, depends on what that person's goals are.
Let me illustrate this with an example. Consider that you have a group of people who value (individual) freedom. (Freedom is their goal.) And then some other group of people, who practice a certain religion, move in to the same area. (For the religious people, piety is their goal.) Now given these religious people have piety as their goal, they may come to the conclusion that it is "good" and "better" to force their "religious law" on those freedom loving people.
If that wasn't clear, let me quote one more part from your article and reply to that...
"By engaging in a peaceful surrender, the conquered peoples may lose some freedom and cultural vigor, but the positive changes derived from increased trade, including medicine or technology, would offset these harmful ramifications."
If I'm understanding you correctly, you are trying to convince other people to "peacefully surrender". But you are making an assumption that these people want the goals you listed and are willing to give up some of their freedom and cultural vigor. I do not believe that is true (in general).
For The Undiscovered Jew:
Thanks for that correction. You are right that human rights became the foundation of later liberal ideas and awaited the twentieth century before the "blank slate" became popular.
For centuries the "obviousness" of inequality justified mass murder and cultural practices like slavery. Nineteenth century liberalism was an alien idea in sea of Darwinian inequality based upon common sense.Of course we know that Marx and others began the process of social reconstruction based upon new models of human society, but the French Revolution essentially failed and the Russian Revolution led to Stalin.Still, the general trend was egalitarian and theories of human nature ignored genetics until recently.The social sciences were occupied by liberal "scientists" who were ideologically wedded to the environmentalist teachings of Franz Boas of Columbia University.By the time genetics became a mature science the liberalism of social science ruled with an iron fist.Today their misguided thinking rules society despite its incorrectness.
There are at least two ways to break relativity:(1)Find evidence for God to warrant His absolute rules;(2) Find moral facts associated with both a moral instinct and a faith instinct. The latter route is becoming accessible lately and may yield an empirical basis for moral judgments.
"I think you misunderstood my argument. Africa and the U.S. are measurably different. Nothing in my argument was implying they were the same."
I don't feel like responding to every single part of your comment so I'll focus on the above which is basically the crux of the matter. You claim that Africa and America are markedly different. I assume you would agree America is "better". If not, then your position is absurd. If so, then let's look at how your previous argument contradicts that.
You said:
"I don't think you're going to get everyone to agree on what is "good". People have different goals. And what they want maximized will be different."
Thus, any of the ways you would reasonably define America as better than Africa, I could use your argument to nullify it. For example, America has way better medicine and thus less illness. I could use your argument to say, "Well Africans prefer shorter lives, witch doctors, and placebos, oh yea and sacrificing albinos." According to you, such a definition of "good", actually any definition of "good", is valid.
Thus, according to you, Africa is better than America.
"Second, "good" and "better" are both subjective. To deny that is silly. What is "good" and "better", from a person's point of view, depends on what that person's goals are."
This is also an important distinction and why I accused you of relativism (not liberalism perse, but there's a strong correspondence). On the personal level, I agree. But on the societal level, such an assertion is absurd if one actually applies to real life situations. If one accepts that "good" is subjective, then one must accept the idea that the social zeitgeist of Salem, Mass during the Salem Witch trials is equal to our current social system. That's ridiculous and since your argument leads to such an inane conclusion, I must reject it.
"Do you really think all or even most of those people want to move to the U.S. because they have those goals you listed, or because they are looking for "greener pastures"?"
Ha, "greener pastures" are PRECISELY the goals I list. You don't think people immigrate here for better medicine, better wages leading to more leisure, less crime, less corrupt governments, a balancing between societal responsibility and individual freedom, etc.
And as a last point, my "good" for a civilization is basically personfied by the present-day West, which due to its insistence on freedom, allows anyone to pursue their own objectives. While some have accused me of it in this thread, I have never advocated indigenous people live as indentured servants or slaves under European rule. Rather, a reasonable scenario would have been a peaceful compromise where theyre given their own land to pursue their own way of life.
I'll respond to CJT tomorrow, but I want to address OneSTDV quickly:
Rather, a reasonable scenario would have been a peaceful compromise where theyre given their own land to pursue their own way of life.
If the natives say, "no", would you agree that it would be morally wrong to take them over against their will or should only utilitarian principles drive Western foreign policy?
"If the natives say, "no", would you agree that it would be morally wrong to take them over against their will or should only utilitarian principles drive Western foreign policy?"
That's tough. I'm not sure really. Sometimes there have to be sacrifices for the greater good. Think Churchill during WWII. (Not sure of the exact details) He knew that an entire city would be destroyed and thousands of people would die. He got that information by intercepting the German signals, an incredibly important aspect of winning the war. He knew he couldn't let the Germans know he was stealing their information and by protecting the city, they would know that.
Was it morally wrong for Churchill to let all those people die even though he could have prevented it? How about Truman dropping the bombs on all those innocent people? He explicitly killed them, but in the end, less people died.
The world is an immeasurably better place now because Europeans slaughtered the Native Americans and other indigenous populations. Can an action, one justified by HBD and simply the scarcity of land available for building civilizations, be morally wrong if it engenders so much positive change? Perhaps one could argue it's morally wrong for the Native Americans to not surrender to the demands of the Europeans. Can you imagine if some history book tried to make that not so outlandish argument?
Think Churchill during WWII.
Churchill was acting in self defense. Churchill's situation is not applicable to a question of imperialism.
The world is an immeasurably better place now because Europeans slaughtered the Native Americans and other indigenous populations. Can an action, one justified by HBD and simply the scarcity of land available for building civilizations, be morally wrong if it engenders so much positive change?
The natives were not (mostly) slaughtered by Europeans. The Amerindians were killed (by accident) through diseases they picked from contact with European explorers.
Again, do you think utilitarian values should take precedence over any moral considerations?
If you do, why couldn't someone use your own logic to argue that younger Europeans can better utilize resources than can elderly Europeans and that it would be justifiable for younger Europeans to execute their elderly population so the young will not be burdened with taxes to pay for the care of the old?
"Churchill was acting in self defense. Churchill's situation is not applicable to a question of imperialism."
I wasn't making an analogy. I was providing an example where a sacrifice is made to ensure the greater good is ultimately realized.
"The natives were not (mostly) slaughtered by Europeans. The Amerindians were killed (by accident) through diseases they picked from contact with European explorers."
They killed a bunch of people; that's not really debatable.
"If you do, why couldn't someone use your own logic to argue that younger Europeans can better utilize resources than can elderly Europeans and that it would be justifiable for younger Europeans to execute their elderly population so the young will not be burdened with taxes to pay for the care of the old?"
I don't know where everyone got the idea that my notion of "good" is only relevant to material goods or resources. I never even implied such a distinction. In fact, I've repeatedly stated the Native Americans do suffer a loss if they were forced to abandon their culture or traditions (ideally, they wouldn't have to).
So the above scenario completely ignores the very important, immaterial aspects of the "good", such as long life, being allowed to live to one's fullest lifespan (!), the increase in leisure time which includes retirement, having elderly family members around which surely is something younger people covet, etc.
The above are absolutely reasonable axioms of a "good" civilization.
"do you think utilitarian values should take precedence over any moral considerations?"
I'm not sure they're entirely independent. I'm using utilitarianism as a moral code here. I say utilitarianism justifies imperialism, morally.
In general though, does pragmatism take precedence over moral considerations? I can't answer such a general question. My answer would probably be specific to the given situation.
(I have to split this up between multiple posts, because of the 4,096 character limit)
@OneSTDV said,
"You claim that Africa and America are markedly different. I assume you would agree America is "better". If not, then your position is absurd. If so, then let's look at how your previous argument contradicts that."
Given my goals, yes I think America is (currently) "better" than than Africa. (And just to be specific, that does not mean I think America is perfect. There's a lot of problems I see with it. There's a lot of things I'd prefer were different. But, given those two options, I prefer America.)
(Also, just to be explicit, I said "(currently) better" to be precise in what I was saying. I'm not trying to imply that I believe things will change soon.)
In response to when I said...
""I don't think you're going to get everyone to agree on what is "good". People have different goals. And what they want maximized will be different."
@OneSTDV said,
"Thus, any of the ways you would reasonably define America as better than Africa, I could use your argument to nullify it."
I don't see how. Just because *I* have goals that makes it so I think America is (currently) better than Africa does not mean everyone will, since people don't all have the same goal.
For example, if you gave a pious person a choice between say San Francisco and some poor hick town in the middle of "bible country". That pious person may choose the hick town over San Francisco despite San Fransisco being a "better" place in terms of the goals you listed, because it is not "better" in terms of the pious person's goal of piety.
(If I'm misunderstanding you though, please correct me.)
(More response coming...)
(I have to split this up between multiple posts, because of the 4,096 character limit)
@OneSTDV said,
"According to you, such a definition of "good", actually any definition of "good", is valid."
I'm not really sure what you mean by "valid". (If the "valid" point is an important one for you, please elaborate.)
I'm only saying that people have different ideas of what "good" is. And if your goal is to convince these people to "peacefully surrender" then, given that they have a different idea of what "good" is, then I don't think you will able to persuade them.
In response to when I said...
"Second, "good" and "better" are both subjective. To deny that is silly. What is "good" and "better", from a person's point of view, depends on what that person's goals are."
@OneSTDV said,
"On the personal level, I agree. But on the societal level, such an assertion is absurd if one actually applies to real life situations. If one accepts that "good" is subjective, then one must accept the idea that the social zeitgeist of Salem, Mass during the Salem Witch trials is equal to our current social system. That's ridiculous and since your argument leads to such an inane conclusion, I must reject it."
You seem to be conflating "good" in terms of one's goals and "good" in terms of morality. I.e., you seem to be conflating utilitarian "good" with moral "good".
I thought we were having a discussion of utilitarian "good" (and not moral "good").
If this is an important point for you though, I'll try to answer.
I think murdering and torturing people is immoral. Therefore murdering and torturing of people believed to be witches in Salem is also immoral.
Having said that, I believe the people who did the murdering and torturing of the witches in Salem did not believe what they were doing was immoral. I think the people who did the murdering and torturing of witches in Salem probably thought what they were doing was good.
But, if was there at that time, or if there were people like that here today, I would judge them under my morality and act accordingly.
Realizing that other people have different goals and that how they "calculate" what is immoral or not immoral does not somehow absolve them. It is only an attempt to understand how people really think. (I'll still act according to my morality.)
(More response coming...)
(I have to split this up between multiple posts, because of the 4,096 character limit)
In response to when I said...
""Do you really think all or even most of those people want to move to the U.S. because they have those goals you listed, or because they are looking for "greener pastures"?""
@OneSTDV said,
"Ha, "greener pastures" are PRECISELY the goals I list. You don't think people immigrate here for better medicine, better wages leading to more leisure, less crime, less corrupt governments, a balancing between societal responsibility and individual freedom, etc."
I don't think everyone defines "greener pastures" the way you have defined it. I don't think everyone's idea of "greener pastures" is as nuanced as this.
For some people, it's just a matter of making more money. For others, they just see that where they live is f***ed up, so they just want to go somewhere that isn't. (Note this isn't meant to be an exhaustive list.)
Many people don't really care about government corruption, societal responsibility or individual freedom.
@OneSTDV said,
"While some have accused me of it in this thread, I have never advocated indigenous people live as indentured servants or slaves under European rule. Rather, a reasonable scenario would have been a peaceful compromise where theyre given their own land to pursue their own way of life."
Then I don't think I understand what you are saying. I assumed you wanted some kind of serfdom set up. Maybe not calling it "serfdom". But serfdom none the less.
I thought you wanted to try to persuade them to "peacefully surrender". And if they didn't "peacefully surrender", then force it on them.
(Done with this burst of commenting.)
I can never get enough of how people like you link to the wiki page on Lynn's work in support of it, and pay absolutely no heed to the criticisms section.
Do those criticisms invalidate the idea of different ethnic groups being wholly equal, with the possibility of even the slightest genetic contributions to such differences? No. Does it invalidate even the slightest link between IQ and SES? No. But Lynn's work is astoundingly bad. Nevermind how so much of his thesis rests on the idea of the african genotypica IQ being around 70.
You're right to criticise this liberal mindset, but doing it in the same breath with the wiki page on Lynn's work is fucking astounding. That's a disgusting amount of intellectual honesty right there.
In case you don't know what the page means by unweighted averages, it means he averaged out national IQ's purely by the average IQ of the sample- but not taking into account the sample sizes IN THE LEAST.
Look at the isteve table. Look at profound examples like Ireland's average. How do you people take this shit seriously?
"Nevermind how so much of his thesis rests on the idea of the african genotypica IQ being around 70."
You obviously haven't read Lynn's work. He points out that averages below 80 suggest nutritional deficiencies (like iodine).
Note that Lynn's critics largely went silent when the TIMMS and PISA results came out. Lynn's scores were pretty much bang on.
Anonymous: "The rest of the world was doing exactly what the Europeans were doing - the Europeans were just better at it."
we're better at everything, from creation to destruction and everything in between.
Anonymous: "equating money and technological advance with happiness or a sense of joy or a sense of meaning or any of the other things that are important to a human being is downright stupid and stands against about half a million years of human experience."
you're right on that one. The guy in Fight Club is more real than you think
* * *
I don't know where the author got this universalist-materialist utilitarianism that he invokes as a moral approval of western imperialism. It's weak. "Quality of life" isn't really an objective measure from which a rational emotion-less choice can be made when it deeply involves the part of you that's who you are as an individual and a group. The threat of enslavement and extinction was real. Therefore armed resistance to an invasion of culturally and racially foreign men, no matter how technologically advanced the invader was, was normal. So imperialism meant lots of dead people and less freedoms for the conquered, no matter who did it. It might be slightly different today but all the essential ingredients are there. Seriously, how many americans would move tomorrow to Canada and pay a 50% income tax to live in a "better" country if they were rationally convinced of it by some UN report? That's a minor change of environment compared to some non-western non-white people having to choose between resisting an army of foreign invaders and keep on living as who they are or losing and perhaps having to sit and watch their own genocide.
But we shouldn't care about the less advanced races/continents to begin with. We aren't them and they aren't us. That was true in the past, this is true now. And the tax-funded interventions of our governments don't necessarily make things better for them nor us. Which means live and let die is a more appropriate principle when it comes to foreign policy.
If for some reason you need to have an utilitarian principle here's one: if the cost of imperialism outweights the benefits for * us * (us, not some company whose owners are friends of the king) then we shouldn't do it. If the costs are less than the benefits for us then we should first take a look at who's going to pay the price and if it's really worth it and if it's a yes then hire a private company to do it efficiently.
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